Please, please advice on schools and what to do with my DD

[Kitsilano]

I am hoping someone can offer advice as I'm so worried about my DD1 (6.9) and what to do with regard to school. She's bright but a dreamer, finds it difficult to focus, left handed and writes very slowly.

The background is:

She has always seemed bright - we just assumed we were being PFB about her but many other commented on her behaviour. She was offered a placed at a selective private primary school (Yes I know) but I decided I didn't want her to be in a pressured, all girls environment from Reception so we sent her to a local mixed private school. Non selective - not great reputation for academics but lovely environment.

Reception she seemed happy and fine, Yr1 progressively more lackluster, mentioned being bored, couldn't get her to read, crying at drop off. Plus when I saw the work she was doing she seemed to be very slowly completing workbooks containing maths, for example that I knew she'd been able to do before reception. Spoke to teacher and was given the impression they thought she was a plodder, doing fine, average, with the odd surprising result in tests where "she got them all right!".

Basically we wanted to know what was going on so saw an edpsych who did the WiscIV tests and said DD1 was in 99.7 th percentile for General ability but her Processing Speed was only 66th percentile. She told us at that level of GAI DD should be able to get into any selective school she liked and it would be a question of finding the one that could challenge and support her appropriately.

So we decided to put her down for a local selective girls school for 7+. She did the tests but didn't get an interview. They actually called us to tell us she did well on all tests but her writing was so very poor they had felt they couldn't take her forward.

So now I feel stuck. We are at school that doesn't really seem right for her and it is becoming clear, doesn't prepare students to get into academic secondary schools - mainly because they go up to 18 but are VERY non academic.

I've been told by my sister that probably the ed psych just "Tells ALL parents their children are clever" and that I shouldn't set any store by it. Seems unlikely but who knows?

I just dont know what I should do. How can I help her writing? Should I take her into the local state school ("most children performing well below the national average when they arrive" according to Ofsted)? Should I move her to another private school (She would be very resistant as she hates change). Should I tutor her (against all my principles)?

I know she is so young still but I can see a scenario where she just ends up staying where she is and I am certain it's not the right place for her. Private schools here are massively oversubscribed and there is a lack of state school places too.

I feel I made a mistake in the original choice of school and just want to get it right so she can be happy and excited and motivated about learning.

All advice gratefully received...

At my daughters' state primary, every child has an individual learning plan, with objectives in each subject. The plans are reviewed regularly and the teachers are accountable to the Head, to be able to demonstrate how they are meeting each child's needs. I have friends who are teachers there and I know that this most definitely happens!

There are 2 classes of 30 per year, but literacy and numeracy are taught in ability-based classes, So the range of ability within each of those classes is half that for the whole year group. Within each literacy and numeracy class, there are 3 or 4 ability groups. So there could be 8 different groups, each working at their own level. My younger daughter is of a similar character to yours - very able, but quiet and liable to drift along if not engaged. She doesn't get the chance to drift and she is storming ahead.

Of course, your local school may be nothing like this. But it's just an example of how a school can make sure that individual children don't get lost in the system.

I do think more whole class teaching is done in private primary schools. I also think that this is probably done as the cohort will have a narrower range of abilities due to selection and traits of parents (those that can afford the fees, refusal to take certain SEN and people who also chose to pay fees). They frequently benefit from small classes and teacher pupil ratios.

I went to private primary and certainly remember minimal setting/streaming-though appreciate this may all change now and it was one school. However DS's school (also private) are very good and have allowed him to progress at his own pace and offered exceptional support so every school is different.

And please don't judge schools by your own experience- things have changed!!

Thanks for all your replies. I totally agree that private schools aren't necessarily better. My initial preference was for state. I am going to call the local primary schools this morning. There may well not be places in the nearby ones - when we initially applied for primary for DD (3 closest schools) we were told there was no place available for her in the borough at all. This went on until the July before school started when we were offered the private place and decided to accept as we still had been given no idea which state school if any DD could be offered.

Nora5000 - I actually dont think her writing "style" is that bad. It's more the speed (achingly slow, I even dread asking her to write a friend's birthday card), seeming paralysis when asked to write anything that isn't factual and sometimes discomfort. Her spelling is "average" according to the ed psych report. She gets 9 or 10 in all her spelling tests but when actually writing something it seems to mostly go out the window.

My problem is that I don't know what "normal" is for a nearly 7 year old OR if I should expect "normal" from her given her other abilities.

Is there a website that shows the writing "levels"?

Lelly88 - thanks for that. I will do the speed test with her this evening - should be interesting.

Kitsilano,

It might be interesting for you to do a search on "twice exceptional". My son can get answers correct in a spelling test but not in his writing. His spelling is also in the average range but way below what you would expect from his intelligence.

I don't mean to judge other schools but I am writing as someone who has one foot in the G&T camp and the other in the SEN camp which is a tricky combination. Children like this can easily slip through the net and be thought of as being of average ability when they are not. The two issues can cancel each other out.

I really don't see how [state school] would be the right place for my DD as time and resources would naturally be focused on those kids who were struggling

No, not valid to assume: if they have a "Good" Ofsted they have to be seen (by Ofsted) to be helping children at all levels; the thing holding our school back from getting Good one year was precisely because they didn't do enough to progress average + "more able" learners.

My prejudice is that a big primary will have a large range of ability levels, they should have more resources & experience bringing on children of all ability levels & with a large variety of SN/other issues. My experience (DC1) of small private schools is that they don't differentiate very much, whereas large state schools (DC1-3) stream & set a lot.

I would go and talk to lots of schools, it is possible your DD could get into a state school at year 3 despite there not being a place for her before. This is because there is no longer a class size rule, so they can take pupils above 30. Although you worry about her getting lost in a class of 22, if the school is very full it may well have more funds to employ extra staff.
My DCs primary has 30-34 in a class, but as well as the class teacher, and one to one TAs, it also employs two full time SEN teachers, part-time teachers for PE, French, Maths and Music; and few general TAs.
I would also consider seeing an occupational therapist if your DD is having such issues with handwriting, but you can also see if she can record some of her work using a computer.

OP - I think it is definitely worth going back to the edpsych and/or to a good Occupational Therapist - if it is physically writing that she finds hard, then they may well be able to help. Either way, you need reports from both and, armed with them, you need to talk to all the possible schools (state and private) and see how they react. Their reaction should, IMO, speak volumes about their ability to help and support your DD in reaching her potential (rather than "good enough"). I realise I am stating the obvious, but if you have the means to pay, then you need to take fee-paying or otherwise out of the equation and find the right school for your DD - which, as you say, her current school clearly isn't.

My prejudice is that a big primary will have a large range of ability levels, they should have more resources & experience bringing on children of all ability levels & with a large variety of SN/other issues.

That is definitely my experience. My children's school is a two form entry, which was created following the closure of two small infant schools and a junior. It is striking how much better it is now that they have brought all the children together - with the funding that is associated with the higher numbers. And the high level of special needs translates into a big budget and a wealth of experience in dealing with the individual child's needs.

(Ofsted still calls it "satisfactory" though, primarily because of a minority of parents who don't bother to bring their children to school if they don't feel like it )

A school with a large number of SEN may mean that a child who is within average ranges won't qualify for extra help, no matter the discrepancy between potential and achievement. Resources may be limited and help will have to go to the child with the worst writing, even if this child is working at the top end of their ability. As Stealthsquiggle says, you need to speak to any potential school and see if they are going to be able acknowledge your daughter's issues.

OR it can mean that the school has extra resources, including staff who have excellent skills at supporting specific needs, which all the children benefit from. Which is why it's essential to talk to the actual schools in question and gauge whether they're on the ball or not.

Resources are limited in all schools, and for all kids.

No kid has the optimal school environment.

SEN stuff comes out of the SEN budget - not out of the normal school budget. A special dedicated SEN budget, which is not nearly big enough, and can only be spent on SEN stuff.

Your child needs to be seen by an OT. No school will be able to help fix an underlying physical problem without a report from an OT telling them how to do it.

The speed test mentioned on this thread was for older children. But I asked DD to write for 20 mins last night. We discussed what she would write about before and although she tried to start chatting a few times I would say there were minimal interruptions. She wrote 60 words in 20 minutes - so 3 words a minute. Thing is I have no idea whether that is ok or not! Doesn't seem very much to me.

It's not OK. She needs to be seen by an OT.

You do seem to be focussing very much on the writing, lots of children find the physical act of writing difficult qnd boring. The brighter of my two children is the one that finds writing more ofna chore. Partly because traditionally, boys are slower, but I thing it's also because he has so many ideas that he's disappointed and discouraged but he time it takes him to get them downnon paper. He's had the ideas and enjoyed them and shared them- he wants to move on to the next one rather than write down the ones he's "finished with"!
I would just leave the seining for a while- it'll catch up. Any school that would reject a 6 year old because they can't write fast enough is not, in my opinion, a good fir for a sparky imaginative lively bright child.

Although I can't find any norms for a 6 year old. Sorry

3 words a minute does not sound much. Dd is 7.4 and pretty average and could write about 15 words a minute.

Ds (8) is also supposed to be gifted and also has terrible hand writing. In his case it is down to poor fine motor control and is gradually improving. However, his writing is very untidy and large but he is not particularly slow at forming letters, so your dd may have other issues. In any event, I have found that because ds sails through his lessons, the school have always failed to focus on what he finds hard and therefore there has never been any help for him with his writing. I doubt the school will ever expend their limited resources to help him in this regard.

Did the ed pysch have any recommendations? Did you specifically ask about this issue? If not, I would suggest that you go back to him/her and raise this issue.

GL - you should ask school to put him on a handwriting intervention!

They should do either Speed Up with him or Write from the Start

Or something else to address his fine motor problems.....

Have they actually told you they don't have the resources to do it? I'd be very clear to them that you are concerned about his handwriting, and you want to know what they can do to help.

They have pretty much said they don't have the resources. I think the conversation was along the lines of "there are children with much greater needs. ds's accademic attaintments are far above the norm so no money to be spared for him".

But a handwriting intervention doesn't need to cost money (or time).

We have 'early morning work' for the first half hour of every day, where they take the register while the kids do different things. So your DS would do Write From the Start then, while other kids worked on other things......

I think you should push a lot harder.

Alternatively, you'll have to do it all yourself at home.

But the longer you leave it, the harder it will be to correct.

Thanks Indigo! I have been working on it at home. Really struggle with what it is reasonable to expect the school to do. Have had to push hard on other things so this has kind of got lost but will go back and try again. Thanks again for the push!

The suggestion of the speed test linked on here was the average words per minute at Yr 7 (ie 11 yrs old) would be 13.9 per minute. So if your DD could write 15wpm at 7 yrs old, Goosey Looosey she'd be doing pretty well.

Still doesn't tell me how bad 3 words per minute at age 6 is though...

Did you notice my post with my theories about writing, kitsilano? It's only my ram King's, but it might just shed a little light.

Interesting case study on poor handwriting

Found an article about assessing handwriting in younger kids:

www.consortiumpc.ca/HandwritingProtocolAugust2009FINAL.pdf

It says in Grade 1 a child should be able to write 15 - 32 letters per minute.