Please, please advice on schools and what to do with my DD

[Kitsilano]

I am hoping someone can offer advice as I'm so worried about my DD1 (6.9) and what to do with regard to school. She's bright but a dreamer, finds it difficult to focus, left handed and writes very slowly.

The background is:

She has always seemed bright - we just assumed we were being PFB about her but many other commented on her behaviour. She was offered a placed at a selective private primary school (Yes I know) but I decided I didn't want her to be in a pressured, all girls environment from Reception so we sent her to a local mixed private school. Non selective - not great reputation for academics but lovely environment.

Reception she seemed happy and fine, Yr1 progressively more lackluster, mentioned being bored, couldn't get her to read, crying at drop off. Plus when I saw the work she was doing she seemed to be very slowly completing workbooks containing maths, for example that I knew she'd been able to do before reception. Spoke to teacher and was given the impression they thought she was a plodder, doing fine, average, with the odd surprising result in tests where "she got them all right!".

Basically we wanted to know what was going on so saw an edpsych who did the WiscIV tests and said DD1 was in 99.7 th percentile for General ability but her Processing Speed was only 66th percentile. She told us at that level of GAI DD should be able to get into any selective school she liked and it would be a question of finding the one that could challenge and support her appropriately.

So we decided to put her down for a local selective girls school for 7+. She did the tests but didn't get an interview. They actually called us to tell us she did well on all tests but her writing was so very poor they had felt they couldn't take her forward.

So now I feel stuck. We are at school that doesn't really seem right for her and it is becoming clear, doesn't prepare students to get into academic secondary schools - mainly because they go up to 18 but are VERY non academic.

I've been told by my sister that probably the ed psych just "Tells ALL parents their children are clever" and that I shouldn't set any store by it. Seems unlikely but who knows?

I just dont know what I should do. How can I help her writing? Should I take her into the local state school ("most children performing well below the national average when they arrive" according to Ofsted)? Should I move her to another private school (She would be very resistant as she hates change). Should I tutor her (against all my principles)?

I know she is so young still but I can see a scenario where she just ends up staying where she is and I am certain it's not the right place for her. Private schools here are massively oversubscribed and there is a lack of state school places too.

I feel I made a mistake in the original choice of school and just want to get it right so she can be happy and excited and motivated about learning.

All advice gratefully received...

I think it is Rabbitstew who said that when it comes to ed psych tests the interesting ones are the ones which are different and that the lowest score is the most important (limiting area). I have paraphrased above a lot so apologies to Rabbitstew if I have done so wrongly.

If you have no confidence in the school how long and in what subjects do you expect to have to keep all of that going for? Everyone makes mistakes if your Dd is not happy and you have doubts what harm would looking round and exploring options be?

You say that the local state school has most children performing below the national average when the arrive- but what happens to them at the school? What value does the school add?

If they leave at or above the national average it's an indication that the school knows how to get the best out of the children- so should be able to do the same for your dd.

First I would go back to ed. psych. (I doubt they tell all parents their child is high ability, but if in doubt get all the test results and the report and go elsewhere for a consultation). Explain the problems she is having and ask if it connected in any way to slow processing speed. Take some samples of her handwriting - best, worst, done at self-selected speed, done under pressure. Ask if their is a possibility of any learning issue there. Ask for strategies and if necessary use this information to get the school to look at support and at an IEP. Being armed with this knowledge will help you make an informed decision as to the kind of support or school you need.

Second - and I say this as a secondary teacher - look very seriously at the alternatives to the school you have as catchment. Having spent many years in the past teaching in schools where the majority of children are 'below average' on arrival I can honestly say I would look to the alternatives and would lean away from using the local school. Value added tells us something but not everything: secondaries often do very well by those children who are below average but more relevant for your decision is what are the potentially high achievers like your child doing. What percentages get good grades (above C) in GCSE, AS and A level. What percentage go on to University and which universities are they going to (because some universities are not that hard to get into at all)? When you have a school with a very large cohort which is below average - and significantly below average - the resources are going there. It is hard to have true top sets - they tend to often be top/high middle to allow for smaller bottom sets (not always but often). I now work in a school with a very high general ability, supportive parents, good discipline: it makes a huge, huge difference.

If you feel she is in the wrong school now and that the school doesn't have any plans to push her, sort her handwriting out or tackle her boredom and unhappiness I would not wait until she is old enough to go to secondary before looking for a better fit school. I would look now.

Thanks so much for responding. I have just been going over and over it in my head, it really helps to get some input.

The local state school is rated "good" by Ofsted - it apparently does a good job of bringing pupils up to at or just below the nat average from a very low start point. I really don't see how this would be the right place for my DD as time and resources would naturally be focused on those kids who were struggling and I fear she would remain the cooperative, genial average-seeming drifter that she is now. When bored just just seems to switch off rather than get disruptive so she is easily overlooked (I feel).

Her handwriting is not a total disaster according to her current teacher. In fact it is getting neater. But she is still very slow and can nowhere near put down on paper what is in her head. The curnt teacher (who is actually very supportive and knows of our concern) says she just needs more practice. But I do worry as DD sometimes says it hurts to write and I think she has inherited my hyper mobility which, I have just read here on mumsnet, can cause problems with writing? Plus being left handed doesn't help I guess.

I have called all the local private schools and there are possibly spaces at 2 for my DD next year. She will have to do a written assessment for one of those those and the other is by no means certain. Both schools do at least claim to prepare children to get into the secondary schools they consider right for them.

And even if she did get a place next year I have DD starting school in September, no space for her currently so 2 school runs 25 minutes apart to manage...

Please don't dismiss the state school- go and have look at it first. Talk to the Head teacher- ask them about their g and t provision. You may be pleasantly surprised. Or not. But find out. Our primary is only OFSTED satisfactory, and children start at a very low level. But the provision for clever children is very good - don't assume that all the attention would be focussed on the average and below.

I would think that she needs to be with other bright children. If most kids at the local state school are under-achievers then I would avoid it, especially if your child has "issues" as these will be lost amongst the many other kids with "issues".

I totally agree with Adoptmama on all the school issues.

I would try and speak to any prospective SENCOs for their level of sympathy and understanding. You may well get some that say that a processing speed level of 66th percentile is above average and therefore of no concern, especially if they are having to deal with kids who are below average on everything.

Nora X

But they aren't under achievers if they start below average and end up where they should be. And there will be plenty of bright children there!

Nora5000 - Can you tell me more about SENCOs? How would I speak to one? Are they only for state schools? To be honest I assume as you say that if her writing is reaching the minimum expected standard for a child of her age and the processing speed is actually above average then who's going to want to speak to me?

Does anyone know if there are writing samples anywhere online that show what a child of each age should be able to produce?

seeker - I know you are right in theory. I just find it hard to believe in practice that she wouldn't get lost in a class of 30 many of whom are struggling since she quite easily got lost in a class of 22 at a private school. I will sepak to the school though.

Go and ask the state school how they differentiate for pupils of different abilities. I know it is only one example, but my children's state primary has a huge number of lower achievers and almost four times the county average percentage of SEN.

They have the statistics to prove that children of every ability are progressing faster than expectations. And my personal experience is that very bright children are effectively challenged and engaged. And the school has all the skills that are needed to help with something like difficulty concentrating/poor handwriting, whatever the child's ability.

Of course, your local school may be nothing like this. But it's worth exploring. Don't assume that lower achievers will automatically drag the others down. It's not true.

In a good state school the 30 will be divided up into so many sub groups that it would be hard for her to get lost. Quite often, private schools do whole class teaching, made workable by a narrower range of ability, and often more compliant behaviour. State schools generally don't do that. A class of 30 (most state school classes are smaller then that by the way) would probably usually have at least 2 adults, often more.

www.patoss-dyslexia.org/Handwriting_speedtest.html

Here's a handwriting speed test with average speeds expected for age.

@ seeker - after nearly 20 years of teaching in the state sector as a secondary teacher I can say I have never seen any situation, ever, where there is usually at least 2 adults in any class room. I have had a dedicated support work for ASD child and that's about it. In class support from SEN staff is rare as they prefer to extract. Most secondary teachers teach to the whole group and then, if group work is necessary, divide for that task. We do not routinely keep children in sub groups as in Primary. Children come for between 30 minutes to 60 minutes depending on school timetable for 2-5 times a week depending on subject. It is very easy for the quiet, compliant child to trog along doing ok under these circumstances. Class sizes for some subjects like science are generally smaller - 20 - but for subjects like humanities they tend not to set in KS3 and they go it form classes so they will be 25-30 in many cases. I am not for a moment suggesting that average/below average children 'drag down' bright children. However many children are below average academically because of other issues which affect their education and behaviour. This does have an impact.

But the op was asking about primary schools........

I think you should go to an occupational therapist to get advice about her handwriting.

They will be able to find out exactly what bits of handwriting she struggles with, and make up a daily program to help it.

I also wouldn't rule out a state school before talking to them.

Seeker, I have limited knowledge and I appreciate that every school is different. But, in my experience, lessons have to be pitched at the average band in any class. There will be children on either side of this average band. Resources are limited and have to be shared out. If you have just one child with severe behaviour issues then they will be a major drain on resources (and sure, this child could be in any school in the country). Also, if a third of the class are below expectations then they are going to be more of a drain on the limited resources than just two or three children in this range. If your child goes to a high achieving school then the lessons will be pitched at a higher level. The top table at one school might be the middle table in another school. I don't think it's necessarily a problem but it can become so if your child has "issues" that are not being dealt with because there are not enough resources to go around.
Nora X

Kitsilano,

I am not sure how bad your daughter's writing is? Is it spelling and planning as well as letter formation? My son has mild dyslexia and has these problems but many of his test results are at the bottom end of average which can be pretty low! My friend's son was suspected of having dyspraxia but gradually things sorted themselves out.

I don't really know anything about private schools. I have encountered several SENCOs and they have ranged from brilliant to dreadful. I think each school will have an allocated SENCO. The thing to discuss might be the discrepancy between potential and achievment/underachievement etc. My son's secondary school SENCO is right on the ball with this but previous SENCOs have not hit the mark at all.

Nora X

Nora. - that's really not my experience of a state school.

Kids enter my stae school 'below average' and leave 'average'.

Kids on the G&T register get extra help, sometimes in class, sometimes instead of assembly, sometimes at lunch or after school, and sometimes on whole day events organised by the LEA.

They have a TA in class all morning, and sometimes she helps out lower ability kids, and sometimes she helps higher ability.

My child is being entered for level 6 in year 6. As of this year all schools are entering their most able kids for L6.

Lessons aren't pitched at the average. All the work is differentiated. In DSs class there are kids working from a L2 to a L6. There would be absolutely no point in pitching at the average. The school has a policy that 'teacher talk' is not allowed to last more than 5 mins.

It's no different differentiating for a bright kid than for a kid who's behind. All state teachers have to differentiate at least 3 ways. State schools do very few worksheets.

But all state schools, like all private schools are different. Her local school could be awful. Equally it could be great. That is why you need to talk to them.

Seeker, I have limited knowledge and I appreciate that every school is different. But, in my experience, lessons have to be pitched at the average band in any class

I have extensive knowledge, having supply taught in many schools, and that simply isn't true-lessons are differentiated in any good state primary. (there are of course bad ones)
I would visit the state primary and ask lots and lots of questions. Make sure that you see it on a normal working day.
I wouldn't pay for something that you don't like and doesn't suit her needs.

I agree with indigobell. The school that my dcs attend offer differentiation that takes into account the fact that, for example, reading ages in ds1's year 1 class range from 11 plus down to 5. Ds1 does group reading and spellings with year 4 but because his letter formation and general physical writing ability is not so hot, he does writing practice and so on with his peer group.

Similarly, children who are good at maths do not learn maths en masse within the class, but smaller groups and streaming ensures that they continue to demonstrate that progress is being made. In ds1's class of 30, there is a dedicated TA as well as the teacher and for most actual work they are separated into smaller groups of 15 or fewer children. Individual pupil tracking can help the school to ensure that each child is making progress.

Incidentally, when ds1 is doing writing practice, he isn't necessarily writing what the other children are writing, but will be encouraged to look at sentence construction and to write longer more interesting (for him) things. There is subtle differentiation at all stages.

Is a good state school, though was recently satisfactory and to my eyes there hasn't been much change - we just had an nspecting team last term who were more friendly! By this, I mean that ofsted doesn't mean much to me, it's the vibe and commitment of the school that counts.

Private schools have thus far, apparently, either not done a very good job for your daughter or refused to meet her. That being the case, it seems a bit odd to remain doggedly committed to private just because it is private.

There are good and bad private schools, just as there are good and bad state schools. Paying doesn't mean it is good!

I hear what you are all saying but my experiences have not been so good. This could well be because my child is very bright but has learning difficulties so they have not known what to do with him.

My friend teaches at a satisfactory school with below average results. There are parents there who don't even open the book bags. School are going to have to be making up for what is not done at home. Lots of resources are going to have to go towards getting these kids up to standard with their reading. My other son now goes to a school where intake and results are above average - there is an army of volunteer reader mums queuing up at the school gates. Extra support is going to children who would not qualify for it at the other school.

I agree that any school can be great and there is not necessary anything wrong with your local school. BUT everything can change if your child has any kind of special need.

I agree that some state schools do a fantastic job of catering for bright children, regardless of the intake. It's wrong to assume that everything is pitched towards the average student, that simply isn't my experience. And yes, there are usually two adults in my dd's class of 30.

Children at dd's school also arrive slightly below the national average, but they are above the national average when they leave. Right from the start, each child has been assessed and given appropriate targets based on this assessment - dd is considerably ahead of some of her peers, but is still expected to make good progress. I haven't never once felt that she might be neglected in order to bring the other children up to the required level.

Have another look at the state school, OP - it might be better than you think. It might not, of course, but don't assume that private is always better without checking it out properly first!