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Wakefield found guilty by the GMC

255 replies

manfrom · 28/01/2010 15:34

Finally the GMC stands up and takes the right decision:

www.guardian.co.uk/science/2010/jan/28/mmr-doctor-fail-children-gmc

Apparently there was heckling in court.

"One woman shouted: "These doctors have not failed our children. You are outrageous." She called the panel of experts "bastards" and accused the GMC of being a "kangaroo court". Another shouted: "This is a set-up."

So obviously they believe it's the right thing to do to falsify data and pay parents for blood samples at a kiddies birthday party....

[dons hat and flak jacket]

OP posts:
probono · 23/02/2010 15:08

Wow! So I'm not completely out of the zone!

Heathcliffscathy · 23/02/2010 15:09

speak to me ladies...how do i do the coriander/zinc thing?

mso · 23/02/2010 15:11

Bloody hell, now we're referencing 'medical hypotheses' they're less reputable than Age of Autism as a source and only just above Whale.to. these are the people who regularly publish AIDS denialist articles - and have zero peer review. basically, the only reason to publish there is your hypothesis is so wacky no-one else will entertain it.

it's anti vaxx bingo, I think with the chelation and detox we've got a full house now.

probono · 23/02/2010 15:13

ooh

but I don't do anything complicated.

I get a handful of coriander, make "tea" with it, drink the tea and then eat the soggy coriander.

Zinc is 30mg a day. Also I give to the children. As zinc depletes copper which I believe is implicated with Alzheimer's I do like to keep my zinc up (as well as the immunity boost due to lack of vax. We live in a developing country.)

Heathcliffscathy · 23/02/2010 15:14

mso, regardless of how you feel about this stuff, do you think that your tone is appropriate on a thread that involves many parents who consider their children vax damaged? it's not a joke is it?

mso · 23/02/2010 15:18

I'm sorry but i just can't bring myself to take people who 'detox' their children with coriander seriously. It's just a pity the children have to go through this stuff.

and indeed anyone who thinks zinc will 'boost' their immune system. or thinks boosting their immune system would be a good idea. if you could actually boost your immune system with zinc god knows what problems it would cause.

probono · 23/02/2010 15:24

I could enjoy annoying you, mso.

have linked you to a site you may find appropriate to give you a bit of info about zinc and its role in T cell function and the immune system

probono · 23/02/2010 15:25

I think you're a bloke btw.

saintlydamemrsturnip · 23/02/2010 15:30

mso -perhaps you missed the bit where I said the child I know best who has undergone chelation had it done on the NHS. Under the care of her NHS paediatrician.

Amazing how you think you know more than the doctors who see these patients.

But carry on guffawing, I notice you haven't replied to any of my comments or even apparently read any of the links other than to come back and sling a few more insults.

It is possible to disagree in an intelligent way.

mso · 23/02/2010 15:48

nope, no mention of extra zinc 'boosting' your immune system there.

probono · 23/02/2010 15:50

Are you a bloke, though?

mso · 23/02/2010 16:01

no - i do prefer the company of men to other women though. other women tend to irritate me.

probono · 23/02/2010 16:14

Maybe you have the same effect. Maybe you don't like them because they don't like you? It happens that way sometimes. Perhaps your hectoring style doesn't come over very well?

mso · 23/02/2010 16:19

I'm much nicer when I'm not being told things which are demonstrably untrue.

(actually there are many women i get on well with. ones who aren't credulous generally. )

probono · 23/02/2010 16:27

They're not demonstrably untrue. Perhaps you used that phrase in its cliched sense rather than literal.

I do agree with others that you haven't read posts or links properly and are not sufficiently interested or intelligent to take on board the facts they present. I also think you are a little credulous due to your unquestioning belief system on this issue: and you think you know a great deal more than anyone else, which really is demonstrably untrue, and has been demonstrated.

Anyway, that's just my opinion. I don't think anything of yours, and I know that you repay the compliment.

Beachcomber · 23/02/2010 16:30

That looks like very interesting stuff MrsT. Does that tie up with what gets called oxidative stress in autistic children?

Probono, just figured out. Hello! I have read something on testosterone interacting with mercury and increasing its toxicity somewhere. Don't remember where but it might be in favourites somewhere.

Mso Jabs is a support group for the parents of children who reacted badly to vaccines. Have a little respect and thank the lord that you don't need that kind of support. Vaccine damage does happen, it has to happen to somebody, these are the people it happened to. Taking the piss out of suffering is immature, unpleasant and unnecessary. Calling them antivaccine is stupid.

How about you stop the nasty jibes about Age of Autism and Jenny McCarthy too? If you have an actual, thought out, grown up criticism to make, do so.You don't agree fine, but try to remain civil about it.

I have a very low opinion of journalist Deer and blogger Orac but I'm not going to personally attack you for citing them.

About Wakefield et al's science. You say it has been 'discredited' By whom, where, when, which papers do you mean, all of them, which part of his work? The parts that have become accepted like many autisitc children have bowel disorders? Or other accepted parts like some children improve on CFGF diets (which didn't actually originate with Wakefield)? Or the parts about atypical viral exposure and bowel disease? The parts that have been replicated by scientists in Italy, Venezuela and the United States?

This work hasn't even been put to test by epidemiological studies, nor by the clinical studies which have failed to replicate his work, nor by the GMC. I think you are mixing up the orchestrated trashing of one man's reputation with flaws in the science of a whole team of specialists. Why for example does Deer (and others) continue to repeat the 'rival vaccine' fairy tale when he knows it isn't true? (My guess is so that people will unthinkingly repeat it on forums, on blogs and at office coffee machines until it becomes something that everybody 'just knows'. Just in the manner that everybody 'just knows' that the science has been discredited). Except both of those things are quite simply not true. And most people haven't read the science.

With a PR machine it is all about timing whether one is launching something new or destroying a brave scientist and a whole load of very sick children.

From Jenny McCarthy (yes we all know she is an explaymate but we don't actually give a shit because it is irrelevant);

Statement about the trashing of Wakefield, the monkey study and scientific censorship.

Beachcomber · 23/02/2010 16:33

Our allergist advises zinc for my daughter because it helps with eczema in children whose immune systems are compromised.

Shall I get her on this thread so mso can patronise her and be rude to her too? Perhaps she will make a sick joke about her patients for good measure.

saintlydamemrsturnip · 23/02/2010 16:37

Still no response to any of the links I've posted or any of the explanations I've given. Just more abuse.

I would be interested in any paper you find that has actually investigated Wakefield's hypothesis though -and shouting 'ho ho where have you been for the last 14 years' doesn't count as a sensible response - link to a paper that actually addresses Wakefield's hypothesis- that would be a reasonable response and one worth considering.

mso · 23/02/2010 16:38

ok. which facts that have been posted here do i not take into account? the age of autism and generation rescue blogs? the 'medical hypotheses' magazine? papers by wakefield? vague references to 'detox' and 'boosting your immune system'? 'the dummies guide to zinc'?

these are not credible sources of information. i've just been back through the entire thread and the only relevant, credible scientific studies are the ones posted by me. post something of substance and i will take it into account.

saintlydamemrsturnip · 23/02/2010 16:41

Um no mso, I haven't given any of those links.

Perhaps you would like to actually read what I have written and reply to that. What a novelty that would be. Rather than something you would have liked me to have written.

mso · 23/02/2010 16:45

that was a reply to probono's post, not yours, stuff got posted whilst i was writing it.

why can't you quote on this forum?

saintlydamemrsturnip · 23/02/2010 16:46

And anyway even if you don't like my links (to huge funders of current autism research) or my discussion of IMFAR (biggest annual autism research conference) you could still link to something that actually addresses directly Wakefield's hypothesis. Not the hypothesis that MMR is responsible for the rise in autism, that is NOT and never has been his hypothesis.

Beachcomber · 23/02/2010 16:52

Mso said;

"i've just been back through the entire thread and the only relevant, credible scientific studies are the ones posted by me" [that's an embarrassed for you face not an angry face]

Why are you lying? You have rudely ignored links made by others certainly.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12145534

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12849883

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9756729

redirectingat.com/?id=470X756&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.la-press.com%2Fclinical-presentation-and-histolog ic-findings-at-ileocolonoscopy-in-ch-a1816

probono · 23/02/2010 16:58

Mso: I'm the weak link in all of this. I freely admit it, and find it risible that you go for my links and my posts -- because you really can't manage with the tougher stuff, can you?

The dummies link was a response to your claim that zinc does not help the immune system by the way -- have you forgotten what you posted just a few moments ago? It wouldn't surprise me. But, because the information was on a dummies website, are you still challenging the facts? Do you want another link? There are quite a lot out there.

In fact I feel like withdrawing, I'm just a distraction and an easy target for you. I don't mind what you think at all but I really don't want to enable you to ignore better informed posters any longer.

Hello Beach see you next time.

saintlydamemrsturnip · 23/02/2010 17:00

oh ha ha laughable I have just spotted that bit in mso's post about credible sources.

MSO read every link I have posted today. They're all from sources you would describe as credible. The conclusions to the thimerosal enquiry were from the CDC, or some equally establishment representing medical body in the States. The funded study on vulnerability phenotypes (funded to the tune of +$300,000) was funded by Autism Speaks, who are one of the biggest autism research funders around.

You can google IMFAR yourself and search the abstracts to the programme to see the diverse presentations given.

I see you really aren't reading anything at all.

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