Hib booster

[prufrock]

We have just got a letter to say that dd (13m)needs a Hib booster. This will be the 4th vaccinne against Hib. Reading between the lines of the official leaflet, it appears the vaccinne used recently in the DTPHib injections was not effective enough, so they want to do everyone again in case they aren't covered. I am a bit loath to give dd yet another vaccine, just in case she was unlucky and the last 3 didn't work. Has anybody else been told they need this? Are there tests to check whether she is immunised or not?

hope your dd continues to get better stripymouse. How horrible - I hope her reaction was red carded (ie the authotities were informed by the dr) vaccine reactions are very under-reported. Might be worth recording her reaction at www.vaccine-info.com/ as well- they are trying to put together a database. I know what drs don;t tell you are doing the same but I couldn't find the info on their website.

You made an important point in your message- we do need to be clear that the potential benefits outweigh the costs. With both the meningitis jabs this isn't clear. The number of hib meningitis decreased for a number of years, but the number of actual meningtitis cases didn't. Same with meningitis c- there is research going on at Oxford but the suspision is that as the number of c cases fall the number of b cases will rise to fill the gap.

For those wondering whether to get the hib booster- the high risk group is : children under 2 attending day care. The risk is highest in nurseries where there are children who are still in nappies (hence the under 2 bit I guess).

hope your dd is getting better eulalia. Love the bit about the doors- that's EXACTLY the sort of thing that would console ds1- I laughed

Thanks to all of you who have offered your sympathy - it is horrible when a young child is so ill and there is so little you can do about it, let alone explain it to them. Somehow it also seems worse when you think that maybe my lack of research and general compliance with the Authorities may have been responsible for it.

Eulalia - sorry to hear your little one has been unwell too. My GP seemed to suggest that a reaction to HIB would normally show up within 24 hours and normally last for 24-72 hours with clear improvements after 24. However, it definitely took my little one longer to fully recover than this and I am in no doubt in my mind that the vaccination was responsible for her illness. It seems to make sense that different children would react differently and I wouldn?t rule out an 8 day time span Perhaps someone more qualified might give us their pearls of wisdom on this one as it is interesting.

Jimjams - thanks for your information re: reporting reactions. i will definitely follow this through - surprise, surprise, no-one at all who I have asked for advice over this (NHS direct, several doctors, health visitor) has even mentioned this most obvious and sensible move. I would like to think that the surgery would log this reaction automatically but my goodwill and optimism is wearing rather thin when it comes to up front and totally honest health care.

don't blame yourself at all stripymouse. Really immunisations is a no-win situation. I still wake up in cold dread sometimes because ds2 hasn't been given any- and he may still have some one day (especially tetanus- really do want him to have that I think- but of course all contain thimerosil agggghhhh). It is a case of dammed if you do and dammed if you don't.

Ds had his booster yesterday. He slept really badly last night, but I have no evidence that it was as a result of the jab. The actual injection site is fine - no swelling or redness. He too cried, but was soon consoled by two dolly mixtures handed to him by the nurse, and a fun-sized bag of buttons!

as Isaid before we chose to have the single measles,mumps and rubella jabs for our dd; she had the tetanus/diptheria/hib jabs at 2, 3 and 4 months and that was when her eczema started and by the time she was 4/5 months old it was all over her. It was an awful time for all 3 of us as it made her - and therefore us - totally miserable, in pain, unable to sleep....anyway, long story short her eczema is now under excellent control and doesn;t affect her much apart from the odd patch here and there, but my husband and I will never know if it was the vaccinations that somehow triggered it off in the first place.That is one reason why we are very reluctant to just have jabs unless we have really researched them first. I must say this discussion board has provided a lot of very helpful info and opinion. Although all the GPs and HVs we spoke to discounted any links between vaccinations and eczema ( well they would, wouldn't they ?) we will always have suspicions that there are links in certain children who are predisposed to eczema.

donnie- if you want to research this area further type in "th2 immune system" into google and you should get some stuff. There should be a certian ratio between th1 and th2 cells in the immune system. A th2 biased immune system is one which is predisposed to allergies and autoimmune conditions. It is now fairly widely accepted that vaccination pushes a th2 biased immune system further into that bias- therefore making it even more likely that autoimmune/allergic conditions will develop.

DS1's eczema started immediately after his dtp vaccinations. At 11 months his eczema became infected with the herpes virus and he had eczema herpeticum. It was not nice (and can be fatal!)! Our unvaccinated ds2 doesn't have eczema- paternal family history is full of eczema and other autoimmue conditions. Of course it could just mean that his immune system takes after mine, but I am glad we didn't vaccinate.

Also might be worth tracking down Natasha Campbell-McBride- a qualified dr, who runs a nutrition clinic in Cambridge. (she also has postgrad qualifications in neurology). She has written some interesting articles on the th2 type immune system and the effect vaccinations have on them. Her view is that an eczema flare-up should be a contraindication for immunisation. Wish we'd known that earlier - ds1 was given his measles jab 5 months after the eczema herpeticum, he was still on steroids, and still being wet wrapped (in other words still had quite a flare-up). He stopped talking a month after the measles jab. Actually I think the damage was done around the time of the eczema herpeticum (and videos we have seem to confirm this), but it would probably have been wiser to avoid the added complication of a measles jab. TBH wish he'd never had the dtp and then the whole chain of events may not have been kick started, but still, can't turn back the clock.

Anyway use th2 as search term (combine it with autism and you'll get some general stuff on autoimmune conditions as well).

I like the th2 theory as it would explain the increase in asthma and type 1 diabetes as well.

I've found this discussion very interesting- it's the first time I've seen so many people worried about a jab. Is it a jab/ booster too far? It does suggest to me at least that the government will have to be very careful about introducing the varivax (chickenpox) jab if they decide to go ahead with it. They could end up with an larger than expected rejection of the entire schedule if they're not careful. It's very easy to be cyncial about the varivax jab- especially as it was supposedly developed because parents in the US were having too much time off work to look after children with chickenpox (no idea whether that's true or not btw).

Jimjams, I think you are right about this booster being a jab too far. I feel so angry that I let dd be injected with mercury in her first lot of jabs. Now we're being offered a booster because they say earlier jabs were faulty. I now distrust any NHS advice on immunisation - I think many people feel the same. Wish I had wised up before I let her have those early immunisations.

Me too. I think you think that 'they' know best and just go along. I should have realised something when my midwife asked if we wanted to have ds injected with Vitamin K at birth, we just said 'if thats what you do then do it' - she said 'well, if they where supposed to have it they would be born with it' we still went ahead with it, then merrily trundled along at 2,3 then 4 months ds just got worse each time. We had singles for the MMR, well, its just MR so far (Mumps vac shortage and all) and now this hib thing. Who knows what is being done for the best? We can but muddle through on the info we have.

It is so frightening to realise this schedule of vaccs may not be in your child's best interest - like having the rug pulled from under your feet. Think I will stick to my mum's advice for now - if in doubt, do nothing.

hear hear dinny. Jimjams thanks for that suggestion, I will definitely read up the website you suggest.

You know dinny I'm amazed how many of the older generation are against multiple vaccinations. I've had quite a few older people ask about vaccinations in relation to ds1's autism. I always explain that he didn't have the MMR- bue then they normally start shaking thier head saying "oh its just not right to give that many to a little baby". I then normally horrify them by giving the current vaccination schedule "6 at 8,12 and and 16 weeks?" I always assumed they would be very pro vaccination (having seen far more whooping cough/measles/infecitous disease in general).

And vitamin k? I never even considered not having that - not even for ds2. I don't even know what it's for particularly (although I do now that both my babies were c-section and therefore were high risk for bleeding). Interestingly I read today that anti-D contains thimerosil. Of course some people are given that during pregnancy. I know I was given it after ds1's birth (but not ds2 as he was rh negative), but can't remember if I was given it during pregnancy.

As this is a long thread, can anyone summarise it for me? Dd2 has just be called for hers and I'm not sure what to do, she's 3 and has had her baby jabs and her "MMR" but we did those singley. TIA.

sorry batey I think you'd better read it all. Not sure the vaccination argument can be sumarised- there are too many different factors, and the "right" decision will be different for every child, and for every family.

O.K. read it!! And the Thimerosil thread, and am definitely erring on the side of "no". Have left a message with my HV, so we'll see what she says. At least I feel armed for a discussion now. Mumsnet to the rescue again.........

batey (and others in same position)- please think really carefully about having the booster and if you can, do take time out to read this thread. I wish I had done my homework before allowing my DD to have hers and have come to regret it hugely. I thought I knew the facts (read the leaflet, seen/heard stuff on places like Mumsnet etc....but hadn?t actively looked into it with real care and consideration - just presumed that as she was ok with her other jabs, this would be ok too). Luckily for us we only had several days of her being quite sersouly ill but with no lasting side effects - could have been a lot worse if we hadn?t controlled her temp./dehydration in time. It isn?t just the reactions you have to be concerned about either if you read up on it thoroughly. I am not saying that it is the worst thing you can ever put your child through - just that it is a bigger decision than I realised and in hindsight would have chosen differently.

sorry batey - was delayed in posting this one (potty training ) and crossed posts. Glad you read it through. Whatever the outcome of your discussion with your hv at least you will feel that you are acting with plenty of background information and so making an informed choice. Either way, good luck.

I telephoned the doctors surgery and cancelled my sons appointment for today. At least I can now look into it a bit more deeply before I decide for sure. But I am pretty sure we won't do it - after all my 5 year old didn't have one.
Thank you mumsnetters.

Agree totally about many of the older generation being anti-immunisation. Suppose they haven't been born into this vacc paradigm like a lot of mums now.

I seem to be hearing of a lot of bad reactions to the hib booster - two babies I know (who were fine with the initial jabs) suffered similar reactions as Stripymouse's dd (so glad she is ok). Is it a mega-strong hit, anyone know?

Not sure dinny- but apart from stripymouse another possible reaciton has been reported on mumsnet. TBH it's a bit worrying really- the chances of catching hib meningitis are pretty low- especially for children not in daycare - so you need the immunisation to be very safe otherwise the risk-benefit odds start stacking up in the wrong direction iyswim.

Spoke to HV eventually yesterday and am now feeling muddled again. But have cancelled tomorrows apt as dd2 has a runny bottom anyway. But HV said we will be called again. She stressed the "dd could die if she got the Hib infection "bit. But didn't have any statistics for our area to back this up. Anyway at least I've got more time to think,Susanmts and Stripeymouses words ringing in my head.

Can someone tell my dd1 hasn't been called (not that I want her to be)? But if the risk is so great then why aren't they doing her too. She's 5 1/2, maybe it;s an age thing?

Yes, it's only children under 4 who are being called up. Apparently due to shortage of stocks at the time, children under 4 were given a different type of Hib vaccination which they think wasn't as effective as the one they're giving as a booster now. I think if your child is over 4 they would have received the original type anyway?

Mind you, I've heard several different versions of why they're being recalled from different nurses, so I don't know how accurate that is. The other version I heard is that the diptheria part reacted with the Hib differently than expected which made the vaccine weaker.

only children under 5 because hib disease is virtually unknown in the over 5's- however thisis because the children have acquired natural immunity by the time they are 5. God knows what happens if you mess with that by vaccinating every child under 5- I would have thought that it would just make children more suscpetible at an older age when the vaccination wears off. Pre vaccination days precise records were not kept but hib caused about 20 deaths a year. Peak age of incidence 6 months to 15 months (after which i guess immunity would have begun to kick in for the majority). At time of introduction of vaccine estimates were that 60 out of every 100 000 children would catch hib meningitis and of those between 3 and 6% would die with a further 14% experiencing further problems such as seizures or deafness.

So yes, nasty disease, risk of catching it? Not great- even less if your child is over 2 or is under 2 and not in nursery. I personally beleive that because the risk of catching hib meninigitis is low then there needs to be an exceptionally good safety record for the vaccination.

The "hib your quesitons answered" article at this websote is good:

www.vaccine-info.com/hib/index.htm

A bit off topic, but can someone tell me if you can have your child's MMr immunity checked to see of your child needs their pre school booster - or did I dream it?

We've done all the others so far - but it's alwasy felt like playing Russian rouletter - not just cos of possible lins with autism Crohns etc but becasue of very well documented risks of other horrific side effects. Anyway we've missed our appointment several times through ill health and before they start pestering us, I'd just like to get my thoughts together. If she really needs it then fine, I do beleive in vaccination, scary as it is, but if some children don't need a booster then I'd rather not.

apologies btw for appalling spelling and typing in last message - hope it makes sense!