MMR Debate on Horizon

[egypt]

Just wondered if anyone saw this? DH and I are now concerned about dd having it - after being totally happy with the idea before! Anyone considering the single vaccines? Wondered if anyone knows about any disadvantages to this and how it is done (timescale etc).

Thanks

are there any disadvantages with the single jabs anyone other than being left unvaccinated whilst waiting for jabs? and what is the timescale in between? please

I am not re-raising this a week later to be controversial. I watched the programme and was then on holiday for a week following. I know this is a very emotive subject.

However, I felt I needed to point out that the Horizon programme did not just look at epidemiological studies. It considered the proposal that there is a vulnerable subsect of children who need to be studied individually.

Horizon presented two new areas of research which appear to further refute Dr Wakefields claims.

You might not oersonally place any value on these areas of research ( I have no reason to be wary of them but realise that there are people who will be) but it is important for people to know that they exist and that the Horizon programme was presenting new evidence and not just going over the same epidemiological 'evidence' that has been presented by the government.

Here's a transrcipt of the programme

Here's a synopsis of the programme

Pity they refer to autism as a disease (it isn't)), and hard to assess the other studies as they haven't been published.

Also thought the PCR is so sensitive must be contamination to be a bit daft. You could say that about many PCR studies (including work done to convict criminals and pretty much any ancient DNA study).

I didn't want to offend anyone Just wanted to provide all the information for anyone who might not have seen the programme.

no- it was a useful link- thanks (I make it a rule not to watch any programme with MadDrFitzpatrick in - which means every MMR one, so good to see the transcript (i can skim read him ) )

FWIW I thought the Horizon programme was excellent and really put my mind at ease. I feel that there probably is some link between autism and chrones/mmr, but that the causation is wrong - ie children who are going to develop autism anyway (and it IS a horrible coincidence that the age it develops mirrors the age to give MMR) are then more likely to develop chrones, possibly from the MMR jab. Could be completely wrong, and don't want to offend anyone, but that's the way I'm thinking. I also think that if I had an autistic child I would be desperate to blame something, and that was the impression I got of the mother who still won't believe the studies.
Isn't rubella one that is v important to give because of the horrific effect on pg women if your child passes it on? I wouldn't want to be responsible for that - surely in a civilised society (getting inflammatory now, I know!!) we have to do some things for the 'common good'?!

I have 2 autistic children and can honestly say that I have never tried to blame the autism on anyone or anything. With hindsight the signs were there from the beginning. Both of my boys had the MMR but I don't believe it was in any way responsible as the autistic traits were there long before. It's a world of difference from those parents who have had a child developing perfectly normal and then almost overnight developed traits.

Personally I make decisions like this based on whether they are good for my individual children. Ds2 has had every immunisation that is usually recommended. That was the right choice for him. Ds1 has had everything except the later pertussis imms. I am not willing to risk the possibility of brain damage or worse by giving him the remaining pertussis imms. That's the right choice for him.

When I saw that the program was on I knew what the result was going to show - of course it would show no link as it would have been too inflammatory and against the government targets etc to put something on that says MMR 'might' cause autism.
I'm not anti vaccination but after doing some research dd will not be having MMR, she will have singles. It just seems like the funding for the vaccinations are too closely related to goverment, the fact that they distribute vaccination batches all over the place so that no side effects show links, they withdrew the MMR in Japan for nothing to do with MMR but it was causing swollen brains they didn't mention that, it took some ridiculous amount of cases before they said - ohh MMR.
This is going to be controversial too and I'm not usually a controversial poster but nobody can say how somebody who has an autistic child could be feeling, the government has admitted that MMR has caused problems as they have actually paid out thousands of pounds of compensation (yet another thing not mentioned).
I agree somethings do need to be done for the 'common good' but how would you feel if it was your child that was the 1 in a million and you had to live with that?

One thing I didn't quite understand is, if it is the measles component of the MMR that is turning up in gut linings etc (according to Wakefield's study),why the MMR rather than the measles component of the jab would be to blame? Wouldn't that mean that a single measles jab could be just as risky for sensitive individuals - if there is a risk? That's not meant as a provocative question - I'm just genuinely curious....
I found the programme interesting, as I've read quite a lot of MMR stuff, and have, like other posters, made the decision I believe is right for my children. Hope that doe

Coppertop, I hope you didn't think I was saying every parent with an autistic child wants to blame something, I meant that the mother they showed in the programme seemed to, and that I could understand this. You seem to think more like the GP father in the film.
Chuffed, I know that if my child was that 1 in a million, I would feel awful, and I am a neurotic parent anyway!! However, if I had that attitude, I would never let them cross the road, as they are more likely to come to harm that way!

Singersgirl, I think the theory is that the 3 viruses at once in MMR overwhelms the body, that's why the measles virus gets away and does its damage. Following on that logic, I think if you go down the singles jab route you have to pay a lot of attention to how much you space the jabs out, which means keeping track of not just 6 separate jabs but making sure the time lag between each is "right".

FWIW, the Horizon programme made me more convinced than ever that I am very happy for my children to have MMR. I respect the right of other parents to think different... but I would be SO HORRIFIED if not vaccinating my child led to another child getting a dreadful (very damaging) bout of measles, like what happened to the child with the kidney transplant in the programme. I shudder to think of having that on my conscience.

Jimjams -- isn't contaminated PCR allegations how OJSimpson got off???

how is it 6 seperate jabs? is it not just 3?

6 if you want the preschool boosters, no?

bugger me - boosters too?? I'm struggling with the first 3. when does it get easier??

Could be the singles confer high rates of immunity, more likely it's just not discussed??
Maybe most people who go for singles don't worry about boosters, or decide that MMR is ok by that age...

Well I'm the mother of a vaccine damaged autistic child and don't have the energy to look for something to blame- I tend to be too busy getting on with it. I'm interested in what happened to my son as I didn't/don't want the same thing to happen to ds2 and ds3 (being non-verbal at 6 is not fun- least of all for the child).

The theory (even Wakefield's) has moved on now. A lot of evidence points to MERCURY in vaccines (ie thimerosal) being the biggest culprit. Autistic children don't get rid of mercury very well, that much is known, mercury is a toxin, that is also known. Where does the MMR come in (as it doesn't contain mercury)? Well the same proteins that remove mercury from the body, are involved in response to viruses- so you get a double trigger. The children who regress after the MMR are different (whoops they're pointing, oh no now they're not, and oh they've just screamed for 3 days non stop- must have missed that behaviour before). Walsh who is the big mercury guy in the States says that MMR could be a problem in combination with mercury- he thinks the 2 factors may go together.

BTW only 7% of cases of autism are believed to be triggered by the MMR- too small to pick up via epidemiology.

Of COURSE genetics is involved. But heredity is more than genetics.- the environment plays a part as well. If you are born with a difficulty in getting rid of mercury from the body and you don't meet any you're fine, if you do come into contact with it then you are stuffed.

Probably zebra- I didn't follow OJ Simpson's case- my point was you could say that about any PCR study- which is why these studies need to be conducted very carefully- an OJ SImpson contamination woujld be more likely though- lots of humans around- where's all the mealses virus contamination coming from- it's not just floating around at high concentrations in the air. If they're keeping measles virus in the same lab then I would hope they used proceudres to prevent cross- contamination.

I really find it offensive when people say that we're just looking for something to blame, like we're fragile eggshell like personalities, who must be sitting at home wringing our hands and sobbing into our handkerchiefs whilst raging agains the world at the unfairness of having our little autistics. Bah! Bollards!

zebra- a lot of people who use singles check immunity if they're worried or assume immunity if they're not.

The only vaccine preventable disease my children have caught (well ds1, ds2 didn't seem to get it) came from a vaccinated child. It's never black and white- all shades of grey.

andif I can assure you that coppertop does not think like MadDrFitzpatrick!!! ( coppertop!)

But Jimjams, IIRC, you said it once (at least 2, maybe even 3 years ago, I suppose), you said you were on an email list for parents of autistic children, and most of the people on there were clutching for straws in trying to figure out why "their" child was autistic. Maybe those weren't your exact words, maybe you've changed your mind and maybe it wasn't even you who said it, but that sentiment really stuck in my memory.

I think you must have misunderstood me zebra- I don't know anyone like that. I can't remember thinking that either. Maybe someone else said it. There is someone on here (can'tremember who bossykate??) who has a GP friend who knows someone who blames MMR even though the child was showing signs from early on. I think she used the clutching at straws expression. I do know people on email lists and RL who's children were pointing then regressed within days of MMR.

Anyway I think I have an idea for one of my first projects into autism- on early detection- I have an idea - actually going to go and ask a question on SN now.....

I think looking in people think that autism must be this awful awful condition where you "lose" your child, and their love or whatever. You don't. It is an awful condition- but mainly due to the restrictions it places on your life and that of the child.

Jimjams - no I definitely don't think like MadDoctor Fitzpatrick. I remember changing my name to MadDoctorFitzpatrick on MN once though so I don't know if that counts?

That had me laughing coppertop.
Asif the difference between CT and MadDrFitzpatrick is our friend MDF thinks that x happened to his kid (ie born autistic) and therefore y couldn't have happened to any other kid (ie vaccine damage). Coppertop however thinks that X happened to her sons, but y could have happened to someone else's child.