MMR Debate on Horizon

[egypt]

Just wondered if anyone saw this? DH and I are now concerned about dd having it - after being totally happy with the idea before! Anyone considering the single vaccines? Wondered if anyone knows about any disadvantages to this and how it is done (timescale etc).

Thanks

[ruty]

bit late now to respond, been busy, but i did say I wasn't referring to you specifically andif, just to that idea which i've heard before..

[Jimjams]

I'm not quite sure how you've taken offence! You said the age at which autism develops is the same as the MMR- I've said read the thread I started yesterday (by conincidence) and you'll see that's not what parents are saying. Yes a lot of these programmes wheel out drs who say that (and that's who the hogwash is directed at- the argument, not you), but its not even waht researchers are saying. I read a paper this morning published this year (whcih took the view incidentally that most autism is present prenatally- not something I agreee with but still) and took the view that parents often report with hindsight that their children were different from birth because of x, y and z.

The discussion has been perfectly reasoned on here- I'm just pointing out the weakness of the arguments used in the programme (and every other one on MMR).

[andif]

I think we should agree to differ on this, but I still emphasise that I had no intention of joining this thread to be offensive and thought I had made that clear from the start. I thought it was a reasoned discussion about the strengths and weaknesses of the programme. I was wrong.
I've obviously got MN all wrong and am using this as a good excuse to give up the habit and get a life.

[Jimjams]

Because by saying "if I had an autistic child I would be desperate to blame someone" you make it sound as if we can't accept our children. Would you talk about someone with a child with dyslexia being desperate to blame someting?

My friend's dd had the MMR, then 2 days later had a series of massive seizures (not febrile), etc etc is now autistic. Anyway her paediatrician has told her the MMR (off record) is quite likely to have been responsible, although they'll never know for sure. What however is the most likely explanation- sudden seizure out of the blue 2 days after MMR with loss of skills dating from that point? Hmmm must have been that dodgy chicken sandwich she ate. Of course the association does not prove causation, but lets be sensible here.

If you go to special needs and read the thread I started yesterday on "people with autistic children" you'll see that the idea that autistic symptoms suddenly magic out of nowhere around the time of the MMR is absolute hogwash. You'll also see that the majority of people aren't desperately seeking someone to blame, and if you then listen to people talk about thier children who regressed following MMR their stories are different. If a child is pointing, then suddenly they're not- they have made a huge regression in terms of attention, understanding and socialisation.

[andif]

Can't figure out why just having an opinion makes me 'lame and lazy'!! I've deliberated over MMR as much as anyone? You obviously know me better than I do ruty. If we all agreed, there wouldn't be much of a debate, life would be very boring and MN wouldn't exist!!

What is offensive about suggesting that SOME (and I did emphasise NOT ALL!!!!) parents of autistic children are looking for something to blame? Surely that is the basis of any research into causes of any disease/ syndrome? Don't people want to know what to blame for breast cancer, etc etc - by finding 'blame' then we know how to avoid future generations suffering!! Why are you taking this as an insult Jimjams?!!

[ruty]

just want to respond to andif - it seems`so lame and lazy [not you specifically but in general]to claim, 'oh those children would have developed autism anyway'. My child has a leaky gut and i am having to modify his diet, under specialist advice, to ensure he doesn't have his development affected. If food can affect susceptible children, so can vaccines. Does bnot mean they are going to get affected whatecer you do.

[coppertop]

Jimjams explained it better than me! I don't believe that the MMR caused my sons' autism but that doesn't mean that I don't think the MMR couldn't have been responsible for other children's autism.

[Jimjams]

Sorry BK- can't remember who it was then.

[bossykate]

no it is not me.

[Jimjams]

That had me laughing coppertop.
Asif the difference between CT and MadDrFitzpatrick is our friend MDF thinks that x happened to his kid (ie born autistic) and therefore y couldn't have happened to any other kid (ie vaccine damage). Coppertop however thinks that X happened to her sons, but y could have happened to someone else's child.

[coppertop]

Jimjams - no I definitely don't think like MadDoctor Fitzpatrick. I remember changing my name to MadDoctorFitzpatrick on MN once though so I don't know if that counts?

[Jimjams]

I think you must have misunderstood me zebra- I don't know anyone like that. I can't remember thinking that either. Maybe someone else said it. There is someone on here (can'tremember who bossykate??) who has a GP friend who knows someone who blames MMR even though the child was showing signs from early on. I think she used the clutching at straws expression. I do know people on email lists and RL who's children were pointing then regressed within days of MMR.

Anyway I think I have an idea for one of my first projects into autism- on early detection- I have an idea - actually going to go and ask a question on SN now.....

I think looking in people think that autism must be this awful awful condition where you "lose" your child, and their love or whatever. You don't. It is an awful condition- but mainly due to the restrictions it places on your life and that of the child.

[zebraZ]

But Jimjams, IIRC, you said it once (at least 2, maybe even 3 years ago, I suppose), you said you were on an email list for parents of autistic children, and most of the people on there were clutching for straws in trying to figure out why "their" child was autistic. Maybe those weren't your exact words, maybe you've changed your mind and maybe it wasn't even you who said it, but that sentiment really stuck in my memory.

[Jimjams]

andif I can assure you that coppertop does not think like MadDrFitzpatrick!!! ( coppertop!)

[Jimjams]

The only vaccine preventable disease my children have caught (well ds1, ds2 didn't seem to get it) came from a vaccinated child. It's never black and white- all shades of grey.

[Jimjams]

zebra- a lot of people who use singles check immunity if they're worried or assume immunity if they're not.

[Jimjams]

Well I'm the mother of a vaccine damaged autistic child and don't have the energy to look for something to blame- I tend to be too busy getting on with it. I'm interested in what happened to my son as I didn't/don't want the same thing to happen to ds2 and ds3 (being non-verbal at 6 is not fun- least of all for the child).

The theory (even Wakefield's) has moved on now. A lot of evidence points to MERCURY in vaccines (ie thimerosal) being the biggest culprit. Autistic children don't get rid of mercury very well, that much is known, mercury is a toxin, that is also known. Where does the MMR come in (as it doesn't contain mercury)? Well the same proteins that remove mercury from the body, are involved in response to viruses- so you get a double trigger. The children who regress after the MMR are different (whoops they're pointing, oh no now they're not, and oh they've just screamed for 3 days non stop- must have missed that behaviour before). Walsh who is the big mercury guy in the States says that MMR could be a problem in combination with mercury- he thinks the 2 factors may go together.

BTW only 7% of cases of autism are believed to be triggered by the MMR- too small to pick up via epidemiology.

Of COURSE genetics is involved. But heredity is more than genetics.- the environment plays a part as well. If you are born with a difficulty in getting rid of mercury from the body and you don't meet any you're fine, if you do come into contact with it then you are stuffed.

Probably zebra- I didn't follow OJ Simpson's case- my point was you could say that about any PCR study- which is why these studies need to be conducted very carefully- an OJ SImpson contamination woujld be more likely though- lots of humans around- where's all the mealses virus contamination coming from- it's not just floating around at high concentrations in the air. If they're keeping measles virus in the same lab then I would hope they used proceudres to prevent cross- contamination.

I really find it offensive when people say that we're just looking for something to blame, like we're fragile eggshell like personalities, who must be sitting at home wringing our hands and sobbing into our handkerchiefs whilst raging agains the world at the unfairness of having our little autistics. Bah! Bollards!

[zebraZ]

Could be the singles confer high rates of immunity, more likely it's just not discussed??
Maybe most people who go for singles don't worry about boosters, or decide that MMR is ok by that age...

[TracyK]

bugger me - boosters too?? I'm struggling with the first 3. when does it get easier??

[zebraZ]

6 if you want the preschool boosters, no?

[TracyK]

how is it 6 seperate jabs? is it not just 3?

[zebraZ]

Jimjams -- isn't contaminated PCR allegations how OJSimpson got off???