Continued support for SPHINCTER INJURIES, FISTULAE and other CHILDBIRTH INJURIES - the Ragged Bits Thread

[Jacksmama]

Hi all,
old thread here.

Cyee started this thread in May 2008 after her op, and it's been a haven of support for so many of us who have injuries to our bits from childbirth. Especially with respect to sphincter injuries, fistulae and incontinence after childbirth, there seems to be such a lack of support for women, and the entire subject seems to be taboo. It's as if most MD's think that "a certain amount of damage is to be expected after birth and you just have to live with it". Well, that is simply not the case - and this attitude is unacceptable.

There are all kinds of Ragged Bits stories on this thread. Be aware that THERE IS NO "TMI" HERE - this is the one place where you can spill it all. If you read through the old thread, which is nearly full, you'll see that someone, somewhere, has probably experienced it - whatever it is! So don't be embarrassed or ashamed... we'll tell our poo stories if you'll tell yours.

And also - there are success stories here. Several of us who have been through the medical mill have been successfully "repaired" and are "fully functional", so to speak or even expecting again. In those cases, please join us for Pervwatch - the "after action" report for anyone who is once again venturing into marital relations!

Welcome everyone. We're sorry you had to find us, but we're glad you're here.

ok that is too depressing to deal with but at least it 23 years I won't be having periods so that's something!!
Thats exactly how I feel too... Last question... which hole do you put them in
and yes we do have diclofenac here, used as an alternative to ibuprofen as a lot gentler on the stomach so I will def go and ask for them - thanks Jacksmamwahahaha

Jacksmama, thank you for your lovely post. It made me feel better. I am struggling to post properly on here at the moment - DD had learnt to crawl and pull herself up on furniture/walk herself around as well as drop naps. I never get a minute to MN anymore!

Will read thread later and post when dh gets home.

Hope you're all doing well

Hello everyone. A bit more cheery today. Appointment with new plastics man tomorrow morning, eek. Am taking DH so think will have to keep him out of the room for a bit of it . Don't want to put him off for ever and ever, do I?

I get aches and soreness in my funny bit when I have my withdrawal bleed too. Mine's at the back, where my oddness is.

Bubble - they go up your bum.

Hulla, I'm glad I somehow managed to make you feel better

Good luck with your app't ThingOneOfYourNightmares - I finally found your CAT message in my Junk Mail folder (oops - Shawmail was being a bit too exuberant) and replied. Will be thinking of you!

So you did. How rude of me not to reply. It arrived on one of Those Days.

Does my name suit me?

Love it!
Nah not rude - I didn't mean that!! Was just wondering if between my junk mail filter and yours the thing got deleted entirely.
How are you today???

Hi there and thankyou all for this most welcome thread. I am newish to Mumsnet. Has taken a while to understand the way it works. I love the compassion with which folk are treated: eg. that there are people with the heart to try to understand even those who perpetrated the so-called 'Baby P' atrocity gives me hope.
My ? is to do with incontinence following delivery of a healthy boy (ds: what does this stand for? darling son is my guess am I right?)
Has anyone had the botox jab in the bladder to correct this problem (I read about it in the newspaper, for over 50s it said and lasts 6 months.)
Could I have it done privately does anyone know if nec.. Thankyou

Hi Hagg and welcome!

DS is indeed Darling Son. If you look at the top of the page where it says "Topics" "Active" "Threads I'm On" etc, you will see "Acronyms". I found it very helpful to make sense of some posts.

I don't know anything about Botox injections for incontinence, but someone else on the thread may, or you could try posting a thread about it in "Childbirth" or "General Health". I gather lots of people have some incontinence problems after a vaginal delivery, even without any kind of tearing, so you may get a lot of responses.

Welcome again and congratulations on the birth of your DS!

Hi

I am so glad I have found this thread. Really need some advice; I had a 3rd degree tear with DD1 (4 years ago) which was misdiagnosed as 2nd degree. Idiot Girl let student midife suture. I noticed I couldn't control wind etc, but was so embarassed I didn't mention it to any HCPs. Sutures were done so badly had to be re-done under GA three months later. I eventually told my gP and was referred to colorectal surgeons who confirmed external sphincter defect - advised not to have anything done until family completed.

DD2 born two years later vaginally, they advised CS but I really didn't want one - I am a nurse, have cared for Cs patients and havng one myself was not remotely appealing. 1st degree tear sutured by reg as all mws got very panicky after reading my birthplan which stated very clearly that no midwives, student or qualifid, allowed near me with a needle! Incontinence, mostly of wind, which I know sounds minor but is sooooo embarassing I used to dread work sometimes. Aso had several very near misses still an issue

DD3 born five month ago - intact perineum really, jut labial grazes. Nothing changed really but on Saturday I was completely incontinent. I wanted to cry but had to muddle through somehow as was on my own with the children. And that's another thing - I have not told DH how bad it is, I'm too embarassed. Hardly attractive is it? IN fact, I haven't told anyone.

What do people think about method of birth for DC4 - (not pregnant, just ttc). I understand that it's not necessarily the actual birth that can damage, though I hardly think it will do one's shattered pelvic floor any favours, but also the pregnancy uts a lot of strain on it. I really really really do not want a CS. Ever. But I can't do another episode like Saturday.

Please can someone reply?

Hello everyone, and welcome LittleSilver,

Wow - 3 DCs - well done!

As a nurse your view on CS's is obviously different to mine and quite negative by the sounds of it, which I appreciate doesn't really help when you're in your situation. I have to say that all the people I know who've had c-sections have made good, quick recoveries. I had such a good first birth and hate medical procedures in general but I just couldn't face the idea of delaying my repair for many of the reasons you outline above. So for me the c-sections are the price I have to pay. I agree it's a high price, too high.

The only thing I suggest is getting another appointment with the colorectal person - based on your current state they should be able to advise:
a) whether you are actually going to damage yourself by going for another VB
b) whether your current state of health is something they can totally fix when you have completed your family
c) if there's anything you can do to improve your symptoms before and during your forthcoming pregnancy, eg physio to get advice on pelvic floor muscles

In terms of your DH and telling people - I think most people on this thread feel your pain. It really is the most personal, embarrassing and hideous situation. I did eventually tell my DH. I just didn't want him to think my physical unavailability was his fault or even DD's. I was utterly relieved once I did tell him and I think he was pretty relieved too.

It sounds like your incontinence was a one-off..? maybe a tum bug or something. So hopefully not something that will be repeated. I also had a couple of experiences like this and was inconsolable as a result. I can't even express how disgusting, despairing and helpless I felt. Horrific.

Anyway - please stay around and let us know how you go... and good luck with the ttc'ing!

On a more personal note, I am now 23 weeks pg and have a rather marvellous bump. I just LOVE having a firm tummy! Sickness has totally stopped... now I am just achy-of-groin. After my hopeless GP dismissed my complaint I had the wonderful experience of contacting my amazing physio from last year, who it turns out deals with all of this stuff too and I can self-refer to her! So I am delighted and hopeful that she can sort me out with exercises and advice to minimise the discomfort. I reeeeally don't want this waddle to get any worse and it actually is very sore.

I was thinking of doing a survey of this thread in my ongoing quest to find out whether the people who suffer from these injuries have had any similar experiences or potentially share similar (low-grade) underlying conditions. It just seems strange to me that other people can have bad experiences with forceps and not have the real trials and tribulations we've all had.

So in true anti-TMI spirit, here's my list of ailments/attributes that I think may signpost something about why this happened to me anyway. They are a mix of ailments outside and within pregnancy. Read it and weep. No seriously, let me know what you think... are we all ready for a medical breakthrough? Nobel prize anyone?

• Quite definite ovulation feeling mid month
• Very mild and sporadic IBS at times in my life
• Tendency to constipation and anal fissures in pregnancy
• Proud owner of what I understand (feedback from gratfeful clients!) to be a rather... ahh... tight vajayjay even following birth

ThingOneofyournightmares how did the appointment go?

OK - off for an early night now. Be back on here soon.

Cyee

Jeeezz... I don't post for ages and then... well... I clearly don't suffer from MN-constipation, do I?

Hi LittleSilver - I think we had a similar experience. I had a 4th degree tear diagnosed as 2nd with DC2. Unfortunately it took me 2 years to seek help so not getting very far at the mo with anything to fix the problems.. but lots of help here with managing them! Yes the wind is awful and prob one of my main problems as well as occassional poo incontinence. I am really grateful I wasn't considering more children as to be honest if I was pregnant I would have had a VB again in local midwife only as was unaware of how damaged I was, how this could have turned out scares me... So yes personally if I was to have more I would opt for CS. Like Cyee I have lots of friends who have had them and recovered really well and quickly - particularly where they have been elective rather than emerg. But obv its a personal choice - what really worries you about CS? I can imagine the recovery time with your exisiting 3 DC is a factor?
I am sure you will get lots more replies..
Also re DH - again I hid it for 2 years. Yes its now out in the open but to be honest we don't massively discuss it. My choice.. he ignores my farts ( isuppose he was for the 2 years!), its like they don't happen!We have never had that kind of relationship where we use the loo in front of each other etc.. Yes he saw all in labour twice but apart from that we don't do toilet gags. Gosh I sound really anal now (sorry bad pun!) It is so personal and such a taboo.. this thread is a lifesaver!

Cyee - lovely to hear about your bump! I know I am a quiet member of this thread but its lovely to hear your progress. I will always be grateful that you started this topic!
I def def have the first 2 out of your 4. Sometimes my ovulation pains can be worse than pp - I also have PCOS. Would love to have no 4 as well, can I just pretend I do? maybe no one ever thought to comment on it

Hello! Not really sure if I belong on this thread with my problem, but you sound like wise women

I had DC3 three weeks ago, and I'm fairly sure I have some sort of prolapse. There is a bulgy bit just inside the front of my vagina. I can feel it moving sometimes when I change position. I don't have any bladder weakness though .

DC3 was huge (11lb 8oz) and had shoulder dystocia on the way out, so I guess this is to be expected.

Do you think it might correct itself with regular PF exercises (I've always been pretty good about doing them)? Obviously I'll mention it at the six week check, but it would really cheer me up to hear of anyone who has experienced something similar, and rectified it without surgery.

thanks!

Hi SpawnChorus
Welcome - and hey flattery will get you anywhere

I don't have any personal experiences to share on this score but think some of the other ladies do/will. What I do know is that some prolapses can be treated without surgery... I think it depends on whether the prolapse is being caused by muscle/tissue weakness that can be fixed, eg with exercises and I've heard about some kind of vibrating thing (am I making that up?!). Or whether it's an injury that can only be resolved by going in and repairing it.

OK so that wasn't very helpful at all, was it?!

Congrats on DC3 - what a whopper!

Thanks Cyee

I'll take a vibrating thing over surgery any day

LittleSilver I have just posted something similar to your question in "Childbirth". I have been advised to have a cs for future deliveries but I'm struggling with that. My next baby might be in a perfect position (dd got stuck so rotational forceps were used) for the waterbirth I wanted. I don't want to have a cs for a baby that could easily be born vaginally.

That said, I remember how awful and long recovery from my tear was. I am in pain every single day now and continence isn't great to the extent that I dread returning to work.

I know how horrid am episode of incontinence is. It happened to me in a department store and I had to call dh at work to come and pick me and dd up (there was never any chance of hiding my problems from him!). Its humiliating to leave Debenhams wearing one of your dd's nappies! That's what scares me off vaginal delivery - I dont want that to happen to me every week when I'm 35.

Can you talk to your consultant?

Got to dash, dd is in an awful mood. Teething and tired. I'm in for a rough night I think.

Hi LittleSilver and SpawnChorus

Glad you have found this thread, its been a great support to me, even though I mostly lurk.

Pelvic floor exercises will maybe help LittleSilver but its probably best to go see the gp about it anyway.

SpawnChorus, I completely sympathise. I worry more about long term incontinence than any other aspect of childbirth. Am still TTC #2 but the second I do I'll be at the doctors asking for advice and planning my labour. Want to avoid cs, but don't want to damage pelvic floor or sphnter! What a choice to have to make.

Cyee, glad the bump is doing well. In response to your question
I never have had IBS
Never noticed ovulating
Never really had a problem with constipation
Don't know if I'm tight but did a hell of a lot of pelvic floor exercises when pregnant - too many maybe?

My main problem was I don't think I was ready down there. I was inducted and then baby got stuck and hence needing rotational forceps before hauling her out. She was also pretty distressed so I don't think they did it gently.

Mum was induced with all 3 of my siblings and my sister was induced with both of hers. Maybe my family has a long gestational period. I certainly won't let them induce me next time!

Good luck to all with appointment and procedures coming up.

Hey GibberingGinger - nice to see you

SpawnChorus, I'm with you on the vibrating point!!

Oh doombar! Can't reply properly now, have water infection and am sat in GP waiting room waiting to be seen. Just had to give you (((((hugs))))). Will post again when I'm well.

Doombar.... what a bad day... but good that they're on the case now? I would also have been GRRRRRR if I'd seen that on the notes. FGS...!

Take care and (((hugs)))

Hulla - get well soon.

ThingOne - how are you? How was the appt?

Hello there. I've looked at this thread before and nearly posted, but have been saying to myself that no, this isn't really me, each 'episode' has just been that, it's not a pattern.
This is going to be a way TMI message...
Well, yesterday evening I had another go of a bit of poo incontinence, and I think that may be the 4th time since the birth of DC2 6 months ago. Has been sort of skid marks before, this time it was more, though still not much. It's always happened in the evening, when I've known I've needed to go, have put it off for ages, and then decided I just want to go upstairs (tall house) and turn on the bath and whoops.
Also only happens when I have v loose poo - I think I may have some sort of IBS or food intolerance thing, doesn't bother me much, but does mean that I poo often, and it's usually v soft.
I don't know what to do.
Part of me says, stop being stupid, get you to the GP. Part of me says, stop being stupid, just bloody go to the loo when you need to, then you won't have a problem.
2nd one is true, but the thing is, in the past I never, and I mean NEVER, not in the midst of the worst tropical diarrhoea, pooed myself.
(Birth of DC1, by the way fairly textbook homebirth, though encouraged to push really hard at the end as had passed meconium - came out with a bang, nasty 2nd degree tear, infected, various issues with that tho no poo problems; DC2 super-fast HB, tiny tear, apparently all v easy. So am surprised to be having this...)
What do I do? Anyone else had something like this (ie NOT a super-serious tear etc. but still problems?)

Hi all, sorry I've been neglecting you. I could have sworn I posted about my appointment, but I must have pressed close instead or something stupid. New plastic surgeon seemed on the case. Doesn't specialise in this - well who does - but has done two very recently which have gone well. Described what needed to happen well.

I took DH which was a good plan. Op will be after Christmas which is what I wanted. I'm back on track on the diet but still a long way to go. I've lost ten pounds in the last 25 days. So lots more discipline for the next two months and I should be a reasonable size. Though I don't expect to carry on losing at that rate all the time.

I've had this really shit virus and been under the weather for about a month ya boo sucks. DH has had it for about three weeks. DS2 started vomiting last week but is now better. DS1 started being ill on Friday (day three of half term) and had a temp of 39.5 on Sunday! Not SF but still unpleasant. So you'll excuse me for not having checked in much lately .

Thisishorrible - good name. It is, isn't it? I'm now quite open with my HCPs about how horrible I find it. But please, please go to see a sympathetic GP. It's not normal to poo yourself and there will be some help you can get. Don't be put off if GP1 says just do pelvic floor exercises and come back. Ask for some specialist advice. Good luck.

Hi Thisishorrible - I have to agree with ThingOne you should go and get checked out.
In theory my birth was straightforward, I was in a midwife only unit and home very quickly. The damage was missed. I understand now that there are cases where the position the baby is in when delivered can damage your bum even if the tear is small.

It is horrible we have to deal with this, but if you go now rather than leave it there might be more they can do to help - good luck and let us know how you get on.

Thing One good news re the op and sorry about the virus... isn't it always the way in half term!! I am meant to be taking DS to London today while grandma has DD - am trying to ignore her chesty cough and topped up the calpol! hope they pick up and well done on the weight loss!!