MMR - another US case

[saintlydamemrsturnip]

news report here

Do you know what- I think the threads on here actually made me have my children vaccinated.

I was confused about what to do with ds1 and i looked around at why i should/shouldn't vaccinate him.

I realised that he didn't show any of the risk factors/potential for regression that was described- so i vaccinated him.

and my ds2

both with MMR.

I'm not sure that i would have done without these threads.

Idid tthink about single jabs, but in the end - i'm not sure exactly why, but i did the MMR.

So, mso, mrst and others helped me make a good decision for my kids, and hoepfully 2society" too

I'm just desperately sad that it was because their children had suferred.

I ceetainyl don't see them as collateral damage.

personally, I find it hatd to have a proper debate about this here as too many people have had difficult experiences Personally I agree with MSO but I really do not want to upset those of you who have suffered...
I do think that it seems like a very small group who are adversley affected and the way the anti mmr culture is going means that more kids are going to get really sick. That does not for a second mean that I don't cara about those kids are adversely affected. It's bout weighing up which holds more risk...

god can u tell by my typing that I've been at the pub!

Worth reading Re: the claim that measles vaccine rates have not been affected by scaremongering.

www.layscience.net/node/579

I do find it amusing that whilst GPs and pharmaceutical companies are evil and profiteering for the money they make out of vaccination, people hawking single vaccines at £100 a pop are merely good Samaritans barely covering their costs. Not making a quick buck out of vulnerable, naive and ill informed parents. oh no.

Sorry mso - I am still at the notion of altruism .
I have my child vaccinated. My child becomes deeply unwell and develops autism and gut disorders so you come on here to call me a scaremonger and stupid and point out that my childs life long problems are a small issue in the scheme of things.
Gosh to be so altriuistic....
You seem to be the very thing you accuse the 'anti-vaccinators' of being - a selfish bully with little thought for others

I have never told any one not to vaccinate - the notion is a nonsense. The idea of anti vacc groups is just an excuse to post aggressively. I am pleased you are comfortable that following your research you will vaccinate your children. But your opinion does not take precedence over mine [phew emoticon] mine and I (unlike you) have not the arrogance to lecture others on what they should do.

you really think anti vaccination groups don't exist?

believe me, they do. ask wikipedia for a start

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccine_controversy

there's a whole world of anti vaccination nuttery out there, believe me.

I'm sorry to hear about your child's autism. However, the evidence available at the moment would suggest that it is unlikely to have been caused by vaccination.

I would love to know the selfish motivation for being pro vaccine (*caveats apply). Being neither a GP nor involved with the pharmaceutical industry I can't think of one myself.

I'm really not particularly aggressive either. some people just don't like being disagreed with it would seem.

I am however a little irritated that you can't edit spoilling mistakes, duplicated words (as above) and quote specific points on this forum. it makes it very difficult to converse.

surely the fact that it is unlikely to be the vaccine which is causing the apparent rise in autism (which is debatable) is a good thing? particularly for parents who beat themselves up that they have harmed their child when in fact this is not true.

mso, you are so measured and informed. Loving your work!

www.plosbiology.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pbio.1000114

another very good article.

any of those who disagree with me found any evidence they would like to post? I'm feeling a bit alone, being the only one who has produced any supporting evidence for my arguments beyond anecdote and rhetoric.

Still, as I have got the original poster to admit that the story she posted, even if anything other than a speculative risk, applies only to a group of children who make up 0.013% of live births and is irrelevant to everyone else, I'm happy with how this has gone and I'll sign off

Toodle pip.

Ha ha ha at supporting evidence. I love the way you post something, I explain to you why what you have posted is irrelevant or wrong and you completely ignore it. As I said before the department of health reassured me in writing that MMR rates had not been adversely affected by MMR publicity. The Department of Health. I love that your 'supporting evidence' is a blog. A blog vs the department of health. So we'll try again with pointing out what is wrong with your current 'supporting evidence'.

Erm well that article says 'researchers long ago rejected the idea that vaccines cause autism' which is plain wrong. As I said in the last year I have attended three autism academic conferences. As every conference at least one academic i.e. a researcher has mentioned potential roles for vaccines in various models. In fact at IMFAR - a meeting for over 1000 autism researchers - the potential role of vaccinaitons was widely discussed, in posters, presentations and face to face. If you think it is never discussed and that no-one is researching this you are quite simply mistaken.

I suggested you looked at research projects currently funded by Autism Speaks. You are obviously finding that difficult as you haven't addressed that point, but if you look here you will find some current funded projects examining vaccines directly and others more indirectly. If you spend some time on other research portfolios you will find the same. I also suggested that you email the researchers at the Kennedy Krieger institute to ask for up to date information on autism and mitochondrial disorders. You are also completely missing the point on this - current research is suggesting that the type of mitochondrial disorder implicated in autism is very much more common than 0.013% It comes with very subtle symptoms (some very mild motor delay) which are hard to spot. Some researchers have suggested it might be implicated in up to 10% of autism cases. The pattern of regression is quite distinct and there appear to be certain biochemical markers, but these are difficult to spot in an older child. Of course I'm aware that you're not actually interested in all this, and whether it was 0.013% (it's not- that's for currently well recognised mitochondrial disorders which lead to severe disability) or 31% I'm getting the feeling you couldn't care less.

Probably best if you do quit because your 'response' would no doubt be to ignore the points I have made, go on about the evil anti vaccination brigade (completely missing the point that most people campaigning against current vaccination policy are campaigning for safer vaccination practices).

As for the evil doctors charging for single jabs - this is a little more complicated than you probably realise. The Department of Health have informed me that they are very happy to consider licensing monovalent jabs. However, the vaccine manufacturers have not requested a license and so the products remain unlicensed. This may change in the next year or so as Merck have apparently agreed to start manufacturing and supplying the States with monovalent measles again from 2011 reflecting parental concerns there. (Contrary to popular belief children can attend school in the States without vaccination- I know plenty who do). So who knows, maybe Merck will apply for a license and single jabs will be available on the NHS again.

FWIW I would LOVE someone to explain to me what happened to my child and that it had nothing to do with the MMr. I really would. Genuinely.
Because if someone could figure out what is causing the increase in autism and particularly regressive autism combinewd with gut disoreders then maybe we could ..um... stop it.

I have yet to hear anyone who patiently explains to me that the MMR was not involeved in my sons regression come up with anything else that could explain it. Discounting of course the most common explaination that I imagined it (- which seems to be popular except that his GP who gave him the all clear at his developmental check at 18 months then had to try and figure what had happened and ..er.. couldn't).

I don't doubt that anti- vaccination groups exist. i just don't think they are much in evidence here on MN. I am not anti- vaccination. But it is difficult to be expected to lie about my sons regression in order to keep the peace.I think vaccination is miraculous for many many millions of people. But knowing that it damaged my son does not make me wish it for my daughter. Why is that such a preposterous position?
Again. the fact that his reaction and the severity of it is rare is pretty poor comfort .MSO - you seem very pleased that you have 'made the op admit' that the numbers here are small but actually almost every thread on the MMR about autism has included that info. My recxollection was that it seems to be about 7% of children with ASD but that is only a recollection.

I am going to duck out here as this thread is not about anything other than a pissing contest, ultimately an excercise in vanity and baiting. Very entertaining I am sure.But It is a little more important to me than that.Having 'I am very sorry to hear about your sons autism ' posted by someone who just wants to take the piss is not terribly interesting to me. I am not trying to convince you of anything. I am delighted you have your children vaccinated.
I can't even pretend to be worried that my spelling mistakes etc bother you. I am trying to type while my son wants the computer and that makes it a rush. I would however equally like you to check your postings for smug but it seems you can't do that so maybe we are on an even keel.

I have no problem with arguement. i read postings about this subject with interest. But there is always a line. Some people post " I read this research and it makes me believe that MMR is safest option" and others post " I have read this and it says MMR is safest option and those who disagree are stupid and guilable and think that the world is flat"
This thread is full of the latter. Very very funny when it is not your child.

BTW. If anyone does know what would cause gut problems and regression in an 18 month old child then please PLEASE feel free to let me know.

No. Thought not.

Good post pagwatch. Agree 100%

Before I continue I must ensure you understand that I am writing this on my iPod so there maybe a typo or two. Obviously when we're talking about vaccine damaged children typos are very important.

You asked whether anyone knew why etc. Have you seen the news this week about type 1 diabetes increasing? There are a number of models about for the development of type 1 diabetes - including one which has quite a bit of evidence now which combines leaky gut with passage of gluten and/ or casein molecules..... Sound familiar?? There was a very good article published in Gut journal ( has a high impact factor) a few years ago - if you want a copy please let me know.

saintlydame, can you post a link to the leaky gut article? ds1 has had gut and sensory issues and we are fighting for an assessment atm. Also in the process of trying for an appointment with a lovely GI doc whose main area of specialty is children on the spectrum.

Oh and mso I have been posting on here for over seven years and have repeatedly stated that mmr is safe for the majority and that we're only discussing a small number of children. And I have stated it as clearly as that. Repeatedly. So I'm not quite sure what it is you're so pleased about. All you've demonstrated on this thread is a total disregard for families who have watched their children regress. Congratulations. You must be very proud of yourself.

Jabber - promise I will do after the kids are in bed but I can't on this iPod!

If you google autism research unit and Paul shattock you'll get lots of useful information. Also derrick macfabe who runs a research institute in Canada has done a lot of work on autism and guts - his work is of particular interest if your child has a history of antibiotic treatment. He's very parent friendly and has a great video on the web. I'll link to him later as well. Kids will probably be in bed 8 ish

Thanks so much! Interestingly, ds1 has never had an antibiotic but I still wonder about yeast overgrowth/candida. He has a bad habit of wanting to drink bathwater (bleurgh, I know!) and I have read that can cause yeast.

mso, i had meant to post yesterday that I found your posts quite patronizing as well as insulting to parents who live with these issues. It's wonderful that your experience with vaccines has been good but nothing is 100% safe as any good health-care practitioner will tell you.

Apologies Jabberwocky - kids have been a nightmare.

Here's the Gut journal article It suggests a general model for the development of autoimmune conditions via leaky gut. It doesn't mention autism at all, but is very similar to some of the models developed in the autism field.

Paul Shattock is definitely someone to talk to if you have gut concerns at all. He is very helpful indeed.

This is Derick MacFabe.I personally think his work may well be relevant for lots of autism cases - especially when there has been antibiotic use, but he thinks things like stomach upsets etc can have the same effect. there's a pdf here which summarises some of his work. He's concerned with what happens when the usual gut flora is replaced by organisms such as Clostridium. These release a particular substance known as PPA which can give behavioural symptoms of autism (especially when combined with a dodgy mitochondrial system etc etc). The papers are quite heavy going but the video here presents his work in an accessible way.

It's definitely worth exploring biomed. A gluten free diet reduces my son's headbanging enormously!

Thank you! Ds1 is casein-free atm, still trying to get my head around going gluten-free. I was diagnosed with leaky gut years ago so I guess it's no surprise that it could be one of his issues as well.

oh yes, especially is yours is caused by ropey bacteria - you'll have passed them on! DS3 has a dodgy gut too.

The other thing you can use is enzymes. I've linked to Mandi Mart because they come through so quickly from her.

I have thought about enzymes. We do lots of supplements already so I really should add that. He takes large amounts of probiotics, omega 3's, vit A and D (in the form of cod liver oil) and magnesium glycinate. Has made a tremendous improvement and the only thing that got him off miralax (lactulose I think it is in the UK).

Are you on the Treating Autism list? Lots of people on there using biomed. It's a very busy list so I'm no mail at the moment, but a friend sends me the extra interesting stuff.

I didn't know about that. I'm on a more local type list but will look into that. I found a supplenment called "Gastro Support Hypoallergenic" while browsing. do you use anything like that as well?

We haven't used much for a while because ds1 is so hard to get supplements into. At the moment he is gluten free and has enzymes and kirkman's super nu thera. Although actually I think brainchild spectrum support is better tbh. Oh we have espom salts in a cream too.

We have tried other things at various times but for a long time ds1's diet was so limited it was impossible. And most things I didn't see that much difference tbh. The gluten -yes a big difference and cod liver oil when he would take it. He would drop foods we tried to hide stuff in (or eat around it) and was eating such a limited diet. That was sorted by one teacher's painstaking work over the course of a year when he moved to his SLD school.

If I could get cod liver oil into him I would- he used to be on it- and it stopped all his 'funny eyes' stuff he did (looking out of the corner os his eyes at things) but he just won't take it.

oh - actually the thing that sorted his gut was saccromyces! It's a yeast as well but non colonising. We gave a mix of that and probiotics.

He eats so well now that I'm not so worried about things like probiotics and vitamins etc. It was more of a concern in the years post regression when he was eating no meat, fish, fruit, cheese, yoghurt or veg!

Have you thought about having a behavioral optometrist check him out? i am currently doing a lot with yoked prism therapy to improve things like sideways gaze in kids on the spectrum. It's very exciting when you get a good response, which fortunately ds1 is one of them chipmonkey does this in her practice too.