Decided against vaccinations for dd...... thoughts please

[bogie]

We had full intentions of vaccinating dd (ds-3 had his baby vaccines but no mmr) but our helth visitor left we haven't had a health visitor since dd was 2 weeks old, our gp practice is rubbish and even though I registered dd after the birth they lost the slip and had no record of it.
So we didn't hear anything about her jabs and when they needed to see her, nor did I have a postnatal 10 week check.
I phoned a few weeks ago when they said they didn't know we had a new baby and that someone must of misplaced the forms dd is now 4 months(18 weeks) and they said we need to get her in asap for her jabs but they have no appointments untill the 16th of Jan, We fly to USA on the 16th so we can't do that day she said well thats al we hae so it will have to be when you get back in feburary.

So I decided to reserch the vaccines and came across lots of anti-vaccine sites including this one
www.vaclib.org/
articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2008/11/11/some-parents-are-home-schooling-their-kids-to -avoid-vaccinations.aspx and we have decided not to vaccinate her based on the many sites we have come across, also the fact that we have alot of autisum in our family including my younger brother who had the mmr whereas I didn't have the mmr.

So I am interested to hear other peoples poins of veiw

Of course the MMR is fine for most children. Having a child who is not most children I don't find that very comforting.

No one from the medical establishment has ever tried to examine why my child regressed in such violent terms that even his GP was horrified and alarmed.
Instead it seems to me that every ounce of energy that the NHS has expended on my child has been to try and rubbish the link with the MMR - in spite of the links so obvious you would have to be deaf,blind, drunk and stupid not to see them.

It is beyond offensive to me that smug journalists and medical practitioners and actually other parents would prefer to craft unpleasant snyde ripostes to what happened to my son rather than just asking why a few children clearly seem to have been affected.

Its not big and its not clever.
And actually all the groups of people sneering and blaming those of us with genuine concernms achieve is to make the lives of our children more dangerous.

I mean why would anyone think it was better to have jibe and counter jibe rather than taking the children where there seems to be sufficient corrolation to make a case and ...err.... figure out what happened.
Parents with kids outside the risk group would then have no hesitation in vaccinating. Andthe children at risk could be looked at to find a safer way to support their immune systems.

What a fucking stupid idea that is.
Much better that I have a profoundly disabled son with a destroyed gut and get the pleasure of routinely being called a scaremonger and the cause of any measles death in the next twenty years.

heigh ho

pag

So who is Martin Walker Beachcomber? Is he some sort of scientist? Does he have a science background? What are his qualifications for speaking on these issues?

I only ask because he dosen't come up in Wikipedia. He does seem to have a beef against Ben Goldacre dosen't he? Perhaps it's because Dr Goldacre is always so scathing about 'humanities graduates' with no understanding of science.

thanks Ruty.

I am fine really. Just an awful lot of these farkin threads at the moment.

I ought to hide but - its my son. IYSWIM.

i know pag, and you do a great job on theses threads, thank god for you and jute.

Slug, this "my guy is better than your guy" is an attempt at displacement activity away from the research and debate pag suggests -- a serious and earnest examination of what is causing some children to regress after vaccination. It's not a boxing match with credentials. People can think for themselves and vouch for what they have experienced.

For Pete's sake, there is a Nobel Prize winning chemist who has doubts about the existence of AIDS. That's a pretty big credential and if that's your game you ought to be an AIDS denialist next.

Very interesting thread.

I don't disagree for a moment that there are some children for whom vaccination, and especially multiple vaccination are not the right course based on family history, existing illness etc. Parents of those children have every right to refuse vaccination and for their concerns to be taken seriously by their healthcare professionals.
Only one person in the thread though has mentioned herd immunity - which is what protects those children who are unable to have the vaccinations themselves from all these awful diseases. My personal view is that parents of children with no contraindication to vaccination have a social responsiblity to vaccinate to protect the kids who have auto-immune disease, family history of autism, Aspberger's etc.

That's not what I meant stuffitllama. It's just a matter of why I should believe what some random guy on the internet says or someone who has demonstrated some qualifications in the area. Martin Walker may well be right, but who is he? What's his background? Does he have an axe to grind? Science is all about people disagreeing with each other and doing (and redoing) the research to back themselves up. Ben Goldacre's point is NOT with Andrew Wakefield and his research, rather with the way the media takes research, does not really understand it, and reports it in a way that spreads misinformation and causes panics.

most media stuff i have seen has taken the line that Wakefield has been discredited, they have helped to destroy his career, certainly here.

Yes Ruty it's like received wisdom "Wakefield has been discredited". Everybody says so, so it must be true.

It looked like that to me Slug. You aren't asking whether Ben Goldacre has an axe to grind. Perhaps you believe it's not possible if someone has trained as a medical professional.

Of course it's not only entirely possible but highly likely.

I spoke to a doctor over dinner who said she felt like saying to "these people":

"Get your **ing kids vaccinated, it's a no brainer" -- and I'm supposed to defer to that because I didn't choose medical training?

No your not. But you should ask yourself what qualifications someone has when they give you advice.

For examply, last night I was at a WI meeting (Iknow, soooo middle class) watching a demonstration about raw foods. The woman who was demonstrating constantly referred to her previous career in a university while spouting the most ridiculous garbage. One of her gems was that chlorophyll is chemically nearly identical to haemogloblin and therefore necessary for a good diet. I don't dispute that greens are good for you, but that comment is wrong on so many levels that it's laughable to anyone with even A level chemistry. Yet her constant referrals to the academic life gave a veneer of authority. The fact is (and yes, I asked) she had spent a couple of years giving language support to second language speakers on Fine Arts courses.

So I don't think it's unreasonble to ask what someone's qualifications are because I take their advice seriously. If you don't you end up believing such characters as Gillian McKeith and her belief in 'colour vibrations in food' and buying her products and making her rich.

agree slug. but i think what upsets people who are concerned about vaccinations is the perceived idea that they are all, to borrow a phrase 'madlentilweavers'. I am sceptical about a lot of stuff on the internet. However i was referred to an immunologist over my concerns for ds and he was brilliant and extremely understanding about my worries re my auto immune condition and ds's gut problems. He offered to break up the infant jabs and oversee them in hospital. He was not pushy or patronising either, unlike most doctors i have spoken to about the subject. I do feel there is a lot of laziness around the subject in the general medical profession. My gp berated me delaying vaccinations when ds was 3 months old telling me he was at risk of contracting mumps.I had to politely point out that he was not due MMR until 13 months.

It's such a minefield, this whole issue of vaccinating. It's like so many other aspects of health in the modern world (such as wifi, mobile phones, etc) - there are strong arguments on both sides and you often end up suspecting that the official reports are tarnished by association with interested parties paying for the research.

One thing that makes the decision that much harder is that the vaccinations we grew up with are pretty much obsolete, as they're constantly being developed and 'improved' (whatever that means) - so we can't even make subjective comparisons based on our own experience.

It does seem very unwise to avoid all vaccinations; bogie, to answer your qu I did read up on them (in a fiercely anti-vaccine health book) and decided I would go ahead anyway. The information presented to me was so one-sided that I felt it was as much of a political lobby as the pro-vaccine arguments. At the end of the day when it comes to vaccines we're not interested in politics, are we? All we want is healthy children.

In case nobody's mentioned this, another reason for vaccinating is that it massively increases the dangers for children (and adults) on chemotherapy - one outbreak of measles and such a child would almost certainly die as they'd have no immunity. I know one child who is recovering from cancer and back and school; though it's statistically rare for children to have cancer, for those who do this no-vaccination issue is a constant threat.

slug
actually one lovely GP I know made a similar comment to me which has stayed with me. It made the same point although I suspect we interpret its lesson diferently

He said that his trainning as a GP taught him that there was no link between vaccine and autism. However fis entire trainning about autism had included one lecture 20 something years ago one rainy afternoon when he was told that he was only required to look for signs to refer to specialists - but that he was very unlikely ever to see a case.

He said that since my son started to regress and become unwell i had immersed myself in my son, autism and gut disorder - and had been reading for many hours a day about 6 years ( actually 9 years now).

His conclusion was that i probably know more about it than most health professionals I was ever likely to meet and that I should never take their advice if it contradicted what I knew about my son.

That advice has stood me in very good stead

Hey Mrs Merry
(nice xmas name btw)

Actually DD has a girl at school who is having chemo and I specificly went into school to ask what they wanted me to do.( I obviously take my social responsibility very seriously and would have kept DD at home had they thought it prudent).

However school, plus girls parents plus girls consultants all had no problems whatsoever and DD is at school as usual. They said she was no more of a risk that any other child and that protocol was simply to remove child if any child in school appears to have anything contagious.

madlentileater even

What a good gp pag.

I've been following this even though I haven't posted since yesterday. One thing I do strongly agree with is the right of parents to have concerns taken seriously.

Eveb though we chose to have my ds vaccinated, I did wobble over MMR - partly because of what I'd seen on MN. Admittedly I had no reason to be concerned as we have to history of autism in the family but I couldn't help wonder if there was anything to be worried about. I mentioned it to my GP when there for yet another bloody bout of conjunctivitus and he bit my head off. Said "I can't BELIEVE we're still being asked about this" etc etc. and was completely dismissive of my concerns. He didn't even acknowledge that regression does seem to have resulted a small number of children after vaccination. For my son I decided that the benefits of vaccination outweighed the risks but I was annoyed at being spoken to in that manner.

It pisses me off that anyone who even questions the GMC line is considered a mad lentil weaver. Without people to question things we're in deep trouble generally.

My DS is 2.1 and when he was age to have the various vaccinations I think my thought process at the time was to look at the worst case scenario, and how my decision would affect this. So, worst case of not having the vaccinations were that if he caught measles, menningitis (sp?) he could die, if he did have the vaccines he could suffer learning difficulties/special needs for the rest of his life. I chose to have him vaccinated and thakfully he has has been fine.

I dont wish to cause offence to anyone whose child has suffered an adverse reaction or trivialise this in any way but put bluntly I wasnt aware of anyone dying from the vaccine and I chose to have my son come what may rather than putting his life in danger.

TBH, although I formed this opinion I didnt do huge amounts of research - I just went with my gut instinct.

First of all and very for people like pagwatch, jute and others on this thread.

I'm a bit like you guys, I feel I have to come on these threads and present my child's reality in all this.

I don't want to turn this into a your guy's more of an asshole than my guy debate as very rightly pointed out by stuffitllama. I just want to answer slugs' question which is perfect reasonable.

So, concerning Martin J Walker. He is an investigative journalist who in recent times has written several books about the politics of the medical system. His most well known book is probably 'Dirty Medicine' but he has also written about HRT and AZT therapies. His books are well referenced and well researched and very interesting. He publishes his work through 'Slingshot Publications'.

You can read what he says about himself here.

You won't find him in Wikipedia because his page is currently deleted (if you click on the Wiki link on Walker's presentation page it will bring up the deleted Wiki page). He rocks a lot of boats and pisses a lot of powerful people off. There did used to be a page up about him describing him in rather unflattering terms. I bet there are a lot of people who wish he would just go away, a bit like his Wiki page .

He is also covering the GMC hearing of Drs Wakefield, Murch and Walker-Smith here.

He is neither a medical professional nor a scientist. His writing is political and investigative not scientific so I guess he is qualified to comment on these issues because he has 20 years experience in writing about the politics of the health system and even more as an investigative journalist. He has written (a little bit) about Goldacre because he writes extensively about pharma lobbies and health industry corruption and Goldacre is connected to this.

(BTW it would seem that part of the lobby's agenda is convincing the public that only medical people, like their man Goldacre, are 'qualified' to comment on medical matters. This is a blatant attempt on the right to freedom of speech. There is a whole lot on this but it would need a separate thread I think).

There is no particular reason for you to believe Walker other than he has written several well referenced books and that his essays and articles are always well referenced (and when you check his facts they are correct, unlike Goldacre's) . AFAIK he has yet to be sued for libel despite having taken on the big guys and their minions in an area of huge financial interest, so I'm guessing that what he writes must be true or somebody would have taken him out by now.

I first came across him when my DD1 was so ill we thought she wasn't going to make it and all of the dozens of doctors we saw about her condition failed to help us. I finally found a doctor who admitted that my child was probably vaccine damaged and who helped us to nurse her. When faced with my shock and incredularity about the covering up of vaccine damage he suggested that I read 'Dirty Medicine' in order to try and understand the politics of the health industry. I did, I was appalled.

What a fantastic gp you have, pag! Can I have him, too? Ours is awful!

Great that the girl on chemo at your DD's school is okay; my point was that if there are outbreaks due to no-vaccinations she'd be at v high risk.

It's bloody impossible making decisions over things like vaccinations without feeling guilt one way or the other, isn't it? What a mad world we live in.

But with respect fiesta that isn't a choice for some of us.

For your child the choice was between a very unlikely reaction to a vaccine or a very unlikely contraction of and reaction to an illness .
Fair enough. In those cases avoiding your worst outcome makes sense.

But for me the choice would be between a reaction to vaccine - which seems very likely as my DS2 had it and DD seems similar in terms of auto immune. Or the remote possibility that she may first be unlucky enough to contract one of the life threatening illnesses and then also be unlucky enough to have one of the rare complications to it.

Fiestabelle people do sometimes die as a result of vaccination. They can have an allergic shock reaction for example.

There are also, sadly, cases of SIDS which have turned out to be vaccine reactions.

MrsMerry
he was so lovely but we had to move - we have to chase provision for DS2 - but I was sad to leave him.
He didn't even laugh at me when i turned up as an emergency thinking I was having a heart attack and had just pulled a chest muscle .
Dh still calls him " that GP who fixed your broken tit"

It is all guilt-tastic isn't it? I just try to remember that we all feel like this because we love our kids so much

There is a terrifying lack of discussion on this issue, largely because people who decide not to vaccinate learn to keep schtumm about it or they will be accused of social irresponsibility - even when they have valid family history reasons.

Personally I believe that the whole policy of mass vaccination is wrong, and is compromising the health of all children. So my decision not to vaccinate is not based on the idea that my own children will be protected by the herd immunity of other people's children, quite the reverse.

Wrt to an earlier post, I have never had a problem getting my unvaccinated children into nurseries, playschools, holiday camps or anything else. It's not a legal requirement in this country, so not vaccinating doesn't ruin your life. One of the main problems IMO is that most people don't know any parents who haven't vaccinated; and so it seems a very big and risky step not to. But one thing you can do is delay the decision - that is probably the best advice I had on the subject in the early days of parenthood.