we want to get our son circumsized but don't know if we should. any advise?

[juicychops]

the doctor has tried to advise us not to as it is an unnecessary surgical procedure. My partner is circumsized and we both agree it is much cleaner and hygenic but don't know if we should do it or not. has anyone had their young son circumsized? and advise?

There are actually many people campaigning to get rid of customs like lip plates - I'm not one of them because its fairly far down in the list of things I don't agree with but people are doing that so, yes, let's do away with those customs. I can't help what most people in Poland do but if I was talking to one of them about having their child's ears pierced I'd say I disagreed with it.

But what's that got to do with what we're talking about? Just because lots of people/tribes/races/nations do something, it doesn't make it right.

I think that the reason people are getting so angry is that we can't stand the thought of a tiny baby going through pain when it isn't necessary.

I saw dd1 in pain when it was necessary. I would explore every avenue open to me before allowing either of the dds to go through any sort of medical procedure.

The person whose view counts the most is the one who can't speak - unless the pain relief doesn't work of course.

But Mud, whether you join in those discussions or not is up to you. Personally I wouldn't have any problem with you discussing/arguing formula feeding with me, as long as you weren't rude or abusive, as I don't think I've been here. Disagreeing with something isn't wrong!!

Marthamoo - You're right that was actually meant to be a simplistic view of mumsnet

I'm a big 'lurker' here, rarely post. And you might hate me for it, but I've actually got a 'lot of time' for your posts

I have no strong views on circumcision, I have read up on it though. I do believe though that a lot of this thread will make people who do it for religious reasons feel attacked, and there is a 'ganging' up feel (that I've also seen on the breast-feeding threads). I know there are many many Jewish posters here and a number of muslim ones - fairly conspicious by their absence aren't they? Wonder if that's because they know their cultural choices will be attacked and condemned as 'abusing' their much-loved babies?

Mud - I formula fed dd1 after she couldn't bfeed due to being in intensive care. Presumably it would have been 'better for her long-term health' to have let her starve?

It's not black-and-white and I support totally those who need to allow their ds's to be circumcised for religious or genuine medical reasons. But 'cleanliness'? FFS!

mud - you can't please everyone, if people want to stay away because the convo would upset them then fair enough, it doesn't mean we HAVE to stop the convo (unless it gets really silly again). There are some convo's I know will get me upset - I just don't read them, its very easy!!

My best friend is Jewish with 3 sons and her first son slept through the ritual circumcision (I was in the bedroom with her). her 2nd son screamed from the second he was taken out of the bedroom by his grandma and taken down the stairs but the pitch of his scream never once changed, when he was brought back upstairs and put on the breast he was fine again and her 3rd son also slept through his

ionesmum - did you feel 'attacked' by my comment then?

that was exactly the point I was making

No, mud, I didn't. I am secure enough in myself to know that what I did was right. If anyone does feel attacked then they can't be that confident.

So, if you didn't feel attacked what was the need for the emotional counter-attack?

"I formula fed dd1 after she couldn't bfeed due to being in intensive care. Presumably it would have been 'better for her long-term health' to have let her starve?"

that comment and question is designed to make me feel like I overstepped the mark, that I should have sympathy for a baby in intensive care (believe me I do), and that the only other option was starvation

It is a justification to elicit an emotional response in the reader. A response that should encompass empathy, sympathy and guilt over saying something quite so bald as I did

I didn't think it was said for sympathy, I thought it was sarcastic because you made a sweeping generalisation that doesn't apply to a huge amount of formula fed babies.

I made a sweeping generalisation ON PURPOSE FGS

Then don't be surprised if you get a few sarky comments.

Absolutely, wk. And I also tried to make the point that I don't generalise about circumcision.

Message withdrawn

Oh and I think its an important point that people with a vested interest in this subject matter stay away in droves. I think that means this isn't a 'discussion' its a diatribe.

I also believe that it shows that those who have circumcised their children feel uncomfortable with the strident opinions and emotive language used. I could go through the thread and quote some but really whats the points just scroll down and read some of the comments

I am actually amazed anyone has admitted to circumcision

Mud, I don't hate many people and certainly not you (am kind of amazed you have a 'lot of time' for my posts - don't I mostly talk crap ?)

I think you make some valid points - but (and this is going to sound harsh) I tend to think "if you can't stand the heat..." I'm not saying there's an excuse for blatantly attacking other posters - it's possible to put your POV without trashing the opposition. But I don't think MN (or any public forum) is a place for the timid. Say what you think - but don't get upset if someone disagrees with you.

But I absolutely agree with you - Muslim or Jewish parents, who have their babies circumcised for religious reasons, of course they don't love or value their babies any less. But if someone comes along (like juicychops) and says...errr...I don't know...we believe it's more hygienic... then of course people are going to try and convince her otherwise.

And that's enough for me on serious discussion for the night - I am well tiddly and need some silly chat!

HappyMum - neither do I actually, I was making a point that was all.

at Marthamoo

I have just necked a bottle of very very niuce wine, that is why I am here ranting. I get bolshy when I get drunk

Mud, DH and are Muslims, but we are both from secular families. My father drank Vodka and joked about Mullahs until the day he died (he died a happy man). We did not circ. for religion, but for what we consider to be health advantages.

Yes and my grandfathers, father, my brother, my cousins and all the men on my husband's side of the family were circ. either as infants or later on. DH was circ. when he was about 7 because he was too ill as an infant to have it done. He does remember it though totally lightheartedly he most ceratianly does NOT rememeber any pain or discomfort as it was done under GA. He does remember the embarrassment because he had to wear a skirt for a week during his summer holidays !

I have asked cousins who were circ. when they were infants whether they rememeberd any pain or discomfort, they all looked at me and said, we can't remember what we had for lunch yesterday !

I think most of the people on this thread have images of a child being pinned to a table and a male relative chopping off the foreskin by using the kitchen knife. This is based on prejudice and not fact.

Sorry I don't actually approve of anecdotes for logical debate, but if an independent study were done on my male relatives (if you add them all up you would get a fairly large pool, several hundred perhaps !) if they have been psychogically or physically damaged by their circumcision, the first response you would get would be laughter. This is NOT beacuse their religious beliefs makes them think they are right (as I have said both families are very secular), but because they approve of circ. on the basis of health, which is why they have had their own sons circ.

Any offers to do a survey on my relatives by someone "independent" ? Mud, you sound quite reasonable and balanced ?

I am quite astounded that only one person has understood my analogy with feeding a baby formula (cow's milk from a bottle) were the long-term consequences are indeed detrimental to a baby who does NOT consent. The long-term consequences of circ. in the vast majority of cases are not deterimental and may in fact be positive.

But kookool, there are two people who need to consent and participate in breastfeeding. If either of them don't want to, then no breastfeeding happens.

A circumcision really only involves one person. And if that person is too young to give consent, then I don't see why anyone else gets to make the decision for them.

And as everyone has said, any evidence of health benefits (or harm) from circ is thin on the ground - so the simplest thing to do is to let the child make the choice when he's big enough.

NotQuite - I am trying to expose the sheer hypocrisy of the person who says, oh, but I am doing the best for my child and then CHOOSES to formula-feed and then says, oh but circ. is wrong, because the child is given no choice. Do people ask their babies if they would prefer breastmilk or formula ?

Granted that the mother has to consent to BF too, but then by logical extension, she is NOT doing the best for her child by formula-feeding, is she now ?

The other favourite hypocritical comment that we see on this thread again and again is: "Oh but I can understnad circ. if it's done for religious reasons" ? I love it.

The vast majority of circ. ARE done for religious reasons and if they are done on a chopping board with a blunt knife IN THE NAME OF RELIGION, according to the hypocites on this thread, that is absolutely fine ! But a parent who does it for a genuine belief in it's health merits has to be shot for child abuse ?

So far NO ONE has been able to come up with conclusive evidence that circ. has no health benefits. In fact there is some extremely reputable research that says it does have health benefits.

Koolkool - Whether you agree or disagree with circumision, how can you compare it to formula feeding? They are two completely different issues. If you choose to do this to your child, it is your decision and it does not make you a better parent as you seem to have told yourself. I won't be visiting this site anymore as I could do without reading complete crap like the stuff you are spouting.

i think that after my last comment, people stopped being personal and started debating again.
mumsnet is about debate and discussion. not slanging. and im glad we're doing that again.
i agree with kookool when she says that people who say circ is ok for religious reasons are being hypocritical, but i would have chosen the term wimping out. obviously they dont want to get into a discussion about religion, and i can hardly blame them.
my sons are circumsised, but i will NOT pierce my daughters ears. i will let her decide when, and if she wants to do it. i agree with the argumentabout it being foiseted on an unconsenting babe. my sons were circ ony after long religious discussions with my parents. and then in the most state of the art medical facilites possible. i would never ever consider doing it for only hygiene reasons. or because it was tradition.

kookool, obviously you feel strongly about formula feeding. why not give it a rest though. you are just upsetting a great many people by continuing like this??