Anyone see GMTV feature on measles, telling everyone to get the MMR? It's put me in a dither again....

[bohemianbint]

We decided a while back that we are only going to give DS the single measles jab, as I'm not so concerned about mumps and rubella for him and I still have reservations re the MMR.

We haven't yet got round to sorting it out though and getting the money together. And apparently now there's cases of measles confirmed in Manchester where we live and there are rumblings about an "epidemic". Having not got around to immunising DS yet I'm getting the fear, and wondering again whether we wouldn't be better just doing the MMR.

Don't want it it be a financial decision, don't want him to get measles, don't want to make the wrong decision and damage him.

Not even sure what my reasons are for being wary of the MMR (apart from not being convinced he needs immunising about mumps and rubella.) Have no idea what to do.

Just thinking aloud really, I've found it virtually impossible to make a decision about this and I'm not comfortable with not being able to define my reasons for not wanting the MMR.

It's got to be a personal choice, an informed personal choice.

For example, most people don't know that if a child under two is damaged by a vaccination in the UK there is no compensation.

Too true, WonderingWhy - people think of childhood illnesses as harmless when they're really not. My nephew nearly died of chicken pox (stopped breathing and luckily was in hospital so they revived him).

I think the problem is the risk of illnesses has dropped below the risk associated with the jabs - if we were back in the days where you had to have 8 children to be sure of one or two surviving, people might feel differently about the jabs.

there are no definites in life, sadly. you have to weigh up the risks and make your choice.

tricky though, because vaccination also has a social responsibility aspect, in terms of not allowing diseases to take hold.

Hearsay and emotion to one side, your decision is much simpler if you base it on logic. You say yourself that you have no logic for believing that MMR would cause a problem for your child. You do however fully understand the implications of your child acquiring measles. I know things are never black and white but from your post you seem to have general parental concern on one side (we all have it!) and hard facts on the other.

In my experience on Mumsnet you will get everything from "its your duty, herd immunity etc" to "doom, gloom and government conspiracy theories".

Good luck.

I do believe, having read a research paper that Jimjams forwarded to me 4 years ago, that the greatest issue was the old style DTPs that contained thimerosal (mercury) as a preservative. The theory was that some children cannot excrete mercury and the MMR acts then as a trigger (this is the less than 7% of regressive cases)

We have family history of auto-immune disease through DH

I allowed DS to have MMR booster at 5 (following DTP primaries and sep-vax)

I allowed DD to have MMR at 18 months following a battle to get her DTaP (acellular pertussis without the thimerosal) which took me 6 weeks and much arguing with doctors and primary care. 2 days following her first jab the govt. announced the 5 in 1 which your child would have had ... In fact today DD (aged 4) has had her pre-school MMR

So what I would say is that IN YOUR POSITION (which I'm not, and I accept that it is your decision entirely) .. but if it was me I'd allow the MMR

Get the immunisations. Its simple in my opinion take the risk that something may happen because of having the jabs or dont have them and then allow your child to pick up the illness' these injections prevent and pass them on to other children.

As far as I am concerened and it is my opinion not enforcing it on anyone else or judging anyone elses decisions its a no brainer for me immunise.

You are though Jam -- you're saying "get the immunisations". I would never dream of saying to anyone "Don't get the immunisations."

bollox see there I knew someone would take it the wrong way. I said it was my opinion just like you stuffit have the opinion that "measles isnt as bad as you have all been led to believe"

Don't get cross.. you said "get the immunisations". I just wouldn't say the opposite to anyone.

It's not really an opinion. People are led to believe are told that the possibility of death is much higher than it is or has been.

Anyway let's not fight. It's good that in this country we are free to choose.

I was part of the live testing for the original measles jab back in 1964. I have never had measles but I do have IBS.

DD1 didn't get the measles or MMR jabs because she was allergic to eggs and our GP said no. She had MMR at about 6 years old and was fine. She had chickenpox at 14 and glandular fever at 17 but missed all the childhood ailments.

DS1 had problems at 9 mo following his 3rd DTP jab. He had MMR. He has dyspraxia and sight problems and is "odd". I am sure he is on the ASD spectrum but never diagnosed. Endless bronchiolitis and other respiratory problems for his first few years.

DS2 had MMR. He has ADHD and dyspraxia, and bowel problems. He also got mumps a few months after the MMR. He got chicken pox at 11 but otherwise quite well.

DS3 had MMR. He got rubella not long after the jab and was quite ill with it. No problems and no illnesses until CP at 9 years old.

DD2 is 14 mo and here is my dilemma. Out of 3 siblings who had their jabs at the recommended times 2 have AS-type disorders. I feel that for our family the dangers of the jabs outweigh the dangers of the diseases. I'm hoping to just get the single measles jab if I can find a clinic that doesn't insist on all 3.

Do what you think's right, of course, but I feel like adding that I've had my 3 kids in 3 different countries (none UK), and there is has been no debate at all about whether or not MMR is safe or a good idea. Everybody has it and nobody thinks it's a problem. I don't know what the stats are, but I don't know anyone with autistic children where I am now, and there doesn't seem to be general concern in the press or the medical profession about the incidence of autism. I have the impression that concern about the MMR is an eccentricity of the UK.

I'm just back from an autism research conference. Not a barking mad one. A proper research conference. An international one with scientists from all sorts of countries. Over 1000 researchers there.

There was a lot of talk of genetics. And even more talk of the potential triggers for susceptible individuals. There was also talk of vaccines being a trigger (in combination with other factors) from more than one speaker/poster. No-one reacted with a shout of 'heresy' - people discussed it sensibly. I was pleased and reassured to see it. In addition a lot of the work on autism is now parent funded - this has happened quite recently - so factors like vaccination are being studied now and I'm sure will lead to some interesting papers in the next few years. There was also a lot of talk of different subgroups in the autism population - (spelling?). I expected to come away from the conference slightly cross - in fact came away very excited.

If you're not in a potentially susceptible category then fine, if you are then the decision becomes much harder. My mum was left deaf in one ear from measles, but no measles jab has gone anywhere near ds2 and ds3. It might do when they're older (although perhaps not ds3) but one look at ds1 and a quick trip though his medical records in conjunction with the latest research is enough to hold off until more is known.

Incidentally I read in the Schafer autism report (I think) this week that following the Hannah Poling case that the US court has paid out in another MMR test case for triggering autism. Again the child had an undiagnosed mitochondrial disorder. The role of mitochondrial disorders was also mentioned quite a bit at the conference. I haven't had a chance to follow it up though so if anyone finds a link please post.

There should be some interesting work published in the next few years.

wulficsmummy- ds1 most certainly is not alright jack. Aged 9 he cannot speak at all and will require 24 hour care for the rest of his life. The decision to not vaccinate ds2 and ds3 at all against anything was not one that was taken lightly and is a decision that is revisited fairly frequently. DS3 has all the risk factors for autism- if you run phsyiological tests on him he looks worse than ds1- but aged 3 he can do plenty that ds1 will never do.

If you're really concerned about other children etc you should get single jabs anyway- single mumps is more effective than mumps in MMR by some distance. Introduction of mumps vaccine seems to have increased the numbers of adults catching mumps (a group that is more likely to have complications).

DS1 caught rubella from a vaccinated child.

MOst children under 13 months are not susceptible to measles - especially if their mothers have had measles. That's why MMR is given later (give it too early and maternal antibodies get in the way). Admitedly babies born to vaccinated mothers are unlikely to have such good immunity.

No black and whites unfortunately when it comes to vaccination. WOuld be nice if there was, but unfortunately that's not the way it is.

Very sensible article in the Torygraph last week

It was here that the second payout for MMR/autism/mitochondrial damage was mentioned.

I was at the talk about the monkeys and vaccinations. It was a preliminary study - although it replicated the procedures used to test vaccine safety apparently (so there was only a very small control group and a small number of animals used overall). Vaccinated monkeys had problems with the sucking reflex (it developed later) - and other things that I can't remember now. It's being repeated on a much larger scale. Again privately financed- it's a study that costs millions.

sparklysparkles, it's not an eccentricity, there is simply more known about it in the UK - the controversy has had more publicity.

In Germany the two doses of MMR are sometimes given as little as 4 weeks apart. And they have recently introduced a chickenpox vaccine to be given at the same time as the first MMR. Bonkers. I think in a few years the controversy could well arise here.

ds1 had the MMR but not the booster and not the CP. I am now dithering as to whether to get him vaxed for CP (he is 3). ds2 will have singles, however hard it is for me to get them. Fortunately we have a broadly supportive paediatrician.

Today when I took DD (4) for her pre-school booster MMR, the nurse acted as though she was going to give her the 5-in-1 at the same time, totalling 8 vaccines ... oh how I laughed

Gawd. In the states children get 36 vaccines by the age of 5 now. In the 80's it was 10. No wonder people are getting concerned.

I'm not particularly anti-vaccine per se- and as peple on her might know ds2 would probably have had some jabs by now if I could get them singly. DS3 I would hold off longer.

I had quite a few chats at the conference with Derrick MacFabe who isn't that bothered about vaccinations for the majority (whilst bearing in mind subgroups etc etc). Actually his model fits our family really well - and reflects what we know happened to ds1. Anyone (yes ruty I mean you !) with a family history of gut problems and/or lots of antibiotic use/concerns about autism because of that might want to watch the video I've linked to. Papers can be downloaded from there as well.

when I say 'isn't that bothered' I mean he doesn't think it's played a huge role.

Which is probably true for the MMR at least. I've been saying 7% for years on here - there was someone who works with Wakefield at the conference - she said she thought slightly more than 7% but brand specific. The dodgiest brand was withdrawn a number of years ago (it was the one that contained urabe umps iirc) Wakefield has talked about that before.

Very interesting article - love the new/old name btw - but what on earth do we call you now? I'm not typing that in every time

jimjams. Or yurt

Wow yurt that sounds like a really interesting conference. Fantastic that the potential vaccine trigger is being discussed sensibly. You have made my day!