Are physician associates safe to see instead of GP?

[ourchildrenareourfuture]

The news articles are really scary seeing people getting misdiagnosed or being given prescriptions they shouldn't have been prescribed, and being made to think they're seeing a doctor when they're not.

Has anyone else had any issues with physician associates, or PAs, when they've wanted to see a doctor? Have you had a delay in getting a diagnosis for something, or misdiagnosed?

No they don't get their training from doctors . PAs have their own training system. It's very short two years. There's a lack of clarity around their regulation and supervision atm.

What's your role as a hcp?

The govt brought them in as it takes much longer and more expense than Drs. They enticed people on to training with high salary making the venture rather unpopular with junior Drs as they are being paid more but are less capable and need supervision but no one asked Drs about supervising them and in what way.

Takes longer to train Drs

I was misdiagnosed by two different GPs. I had ovarian cancer. My DH was sent on his way with a no further action needed, following abnormal blood results, by a GP. He went privately and was found to have haemochromatosis.

when I first started nursing the PAs would do bloods, take the initial history, collate all the results, scribe on ward round and do discharge letters freeing up the junior doctors to spend more time to see the patients. Honestly sounds like a great job, interesting, fairly simple in that it’s so task driven and very little actual responsibility unlike medicine and nursing whilst still being part of the team shame it’s turned into such a scope creep role ultimately due to it being a money saving exercise by the government

No I wouldn’t trust them, they’re not doctors and I don’t think they are on a register either so I don’t know how accountable they are.

It’s all kept as clear as mud in the NHS !

People off the street given 2 years training and parading as doctors lol 😂

You get what you pay for. Doctors were generally very able students and have spent years in training. A PA has spent two years. Who do you think is going to have a wider knowledge of health conditions and dangerous symptoms? I'm not thinking that you picked PA as the answer for that one. My son is a fifth year medical student (who had a BSc before that) and I'd ask him rather than a PA because he has years more training than a PA. Ideally I'd like to see a fully qualified doctor though. At the least you should know who and what you are seeing. Things like they're part of the team etc set my teeth on edge.

this is all so shocking and frightening. These are people's lives :(

if you've not seen it - this is going round on SM after the headline in the telegraph (see image). Maybe email your stories across - we can't let these issues get brushed under the carpet :( everyone deserves safe healthcare.

The GP receptionist at my practice told me I would be seeing a physician associate and I told her I needed to see the GP as it was for management of my chronic pain. She said "a physician associate is exactly the same as a GP". And they're not. Fortunately I pushed and saw the GP but this misinformation is scary. 😢

CALL OUT to patients, doctors and all NHS staff: to keep this investigation into patient safety at the top of the news agenda, I need your help.

Send me a message if you have

been treated by a PA
had a loved one who was treated by PAs
witnessed patient safety incidents at work involving PAs/AAs
… or are aware of incidents involving PAs/AAs that may have been reported

Anyone reading this post can direct message me on ‘X’ or send me an email on [email protected]

coroners? more people have died?? :(

Definitely mission creep - when we could be training doctors. I'm sure some are excellent within their remit and don't pretend to be doctors. I am happy with a nurse physician for most things but it's flagged when I book an appointment; serious things - I think most of us know our bodies well enough to judge - I want a GP with 10 years training and years of experience, not someone with 2 years training.

ANPs are great - the GPs in the practice triage more simple acute cases for them , most don't see small babies and mental health etc
Unfortunately PA are unregulated and no one really knows their competences or supervision arrangements

The BMA are opposing the GMC to be PA regulator as the govt are taking a bill through the House of Lords to that effect, as they are not doctors and it gives the impression they are.

It was a real surprise to me to read that the nmc are responsible for Nurse Associates, but they are not nurses. Not quite sure what they are or where they fit in. But it's definitely unclear and confusing.

ANPs ( advanced nurse practitioners) are nurses with further training - some in GP some in hospital work
PAs are a govt introduced new training - not medical backed per se and there's confusion over their regulation and supervision / training. They are on a high pay band which is quite annoying 😀

Higher than the junior Drs on call who are ? Supervising them ....

Absolutely not

i worked with one who was a complete loon, a dangerous loon at that

had failed to get into med school x 3, huge chip on their shoulder about doctors, barn door personality disorder and utterly delusional about their own capabilities/scope of practice

hell fucking no

Nursing associates are valuable members of the team. They are very experienced within their clinical environment and are able to manage their own patients. The role involves the administration of medication, along with planning patient care. For this reason, it makes sense that they have a regulatory body and the NMC is already well established, so it is cost effective to use them. Training to be a nursing associate means career progression for hcas is possible, which obviously improves job satisfaction and retention of staff in the longer term. Many nursing associates will complete top up training to become qualified nurses. This alternate pathway is necessary for some people because they have mortgages to pay, a family to support and other responsibilities. Attending university full time would simply be a pipe dream.

Even my dentist is not a dentist anymore

shes a dental therapist

Yes nursing as doctor ANPs/ ENPs are nurses with extra clinical training and a masters - a great asset to have, and regulated by NMC

Apologies should read
Advanced nurse practitioners
😫

As far as I know a PA cannot prescribe, so in some ways that is a safety net that is needed for robust supervision, and rightly so, pharmacology training is intense and rigorous ( does not protect from poor clinical or diagnostic judgement though)

Also, they have no professional or regulatory body. Depending on the individual, they CAN, not always, have an inflated sense of their own importance.

My DH is a hospital consultant and has to do some teaching of them. His stories can be chilling.

This is so true!

I'm astonished that PAs who cannot prescribe are being used for meds reviews. That's nuts.

The point upthread about a task orientated job under supervision is a good one. It could be a valuable role within a team, completing the tasks that get people moving through the system. (though probably not worth the salary of a PA).

The salary is a huge issue. Cant recruit science grads on low salary so pay £40 K
Then realise that £40 K gets you a less skilled professional than an experienced Nurse / Paramedic / AHP.
So give untrained PA's more to do to justify their salary.
I've worked in healthcare for too long to be surprised but it really is crazy.

Personally, I would start to look at clinical medical secretary type roles to do the work after a patient has seen a Dr or AHP; referrals, investigations requests, chasing results etc.

@ourchildrenareourfuture Are you also aware how much money is being chucked at Pharmacists to get them to sign up for Pharmacy First?