Zoe app - totally amateur for the high price

[MrsKypp]

I am enjoying the glucose monitor although I could have saved loads of money if I'd just bought that instead of Zoe.

I keep asking Zoe what exactly do they mean by big / moderate / slight spike in blood glucose after a meal. In mmol as per the glucose monitor.

They won't, presumably can't, answer. So it's completely subjective guesswork then as to what a big spike is, or a moderate one etc,

Their app asks us to say how much of a spike we saw on our monitor, yet refuse to say how many mmol. How can I possibly answer that accurately when the glucose monitor works in mmol while Zoe works with descriptors "big" "moderate" "small" ?????

I am SO DISAPPOINTED I have spent so much money on this unscientific vague subjective annoying Zoe thing.

Photo attached: we had been chatting but she couldn't answer so simply diappeared.

Yes, I think they are indeed just harnessing vast amounts of data for future scientific use*

And at the same time, making a massively huge amount of money for themselves.*

I have never subscribed to Zoe as I can’t afford it but I absolutely swallowed up all the hype, which started during the pandemic; logging my well-being daily, subscribed to their newsletters and followed on Instagram and whilst yes, it has been very helpful in making me increase my fibre intake and diversity of plants, I’ve now got to the stage where I am sick and tired of listening to Tim Spector’s sanctimonious lectures on UPF’s and their discrediting of any other diet/ lifestyle with what seems to be at times little scientific evidence to back up the claims. Davina endorsing and making even more money out of it was the final straw!

@JewelDragon

Your list is really helpful. I am going to buy that recipe book instead because Zoe is really too stressful and not even working anyway.

Is this the correct one? Please see attached pictures

Would you advise the revolution or method? Or maybe just the recipe book?

Thanks!

@Pleasenowthatsenough

Tim Spector is really annoying and now I also think he is obsessed with money too. As is Davina.

I so regret spending my hard earned money on Zoe. Big mistake.

Really good you saw through it, wish I had too.

I am going to cancel the 4 months, let's see if they let me.

Thanks so much for this thread OP. I’ve been listening to all the podcasts, reading books about UPF etc and was genuinely considering subscribing.

It has been so interesting seeing what is actually happening for real users. I’m sorry that it’s been a waste of money for you but Thankyou for sharing this info.

I found it a bit frustrating, particularly the inability to log exercise which is a big part of my week, plus it doesn't capture food orderin. As an amateur athlete I was getting insufficient carbs and this was driving almighty cravings! If you add in too much fat it starts to downgrade your score but does this in a way that isn't very transparent which was frustrating.

I think the personalisation is there - it's not that a dietician is reviewing your scores but the scoring is based on how you compare on fat and blood sugar or what gut bugs you do/don't have. I think they do say that the value comes not from personalising the most or least healthy things as these are pretty consistent, but more in guiding you on middle ground foods. Useful but perhaps more limited than the sales pitch suggests.

@Chickenmumsticks

I'm glad this thread is helping you, I'm happy to share my experience. You're welcome.

I have of course heard success stories, although don't know anyone personally.

But my experience so far has just been stressful and I do regret paying for it.

I was thinking of subscribing as I'm a bit of a health nut! However, I have been put off by Tim Spector's narrow minded thoughts regarding the way people should eat.
I was listening to the podcast a few weeks ago and one of the guests was saying how little value there is in eating meat and fish and applying this to everyone.
Some people do very well on vegan and vegetarian diets but some people such as myself, do not. I feel very unwell unless I eat some meat/fish protein.

@Cozytoesandtoast00

Tim Spector's narrow minded thoughts about what people should eat goes exactly against the idea of personalised nutirition, doesn't it.

I can't survive without fish/ meat either because of certain food allergies and tendency towards anaemia.

Some fish in particular have a lot to offer us nutritionally I was told my someone I trust. Oily fish.

Sounds like they are evangelical about beliefs and certainly money grabbers.

Thank you @MrsKypp and @JewelDragon !

I’m just using it as a very expensive (and slightly less intuitive) version of my fitness pal to log melas and calories. Zoe was meant to make me lose weight but turns out I was just eating shedloads of the right food already (even including kimchi and kefir). So I am massively cutting down. And yes, weird that can’t log exercise.
i think the Glucose Goddess Method is the simplest book @MrsKypp

I did find the blood glucose and poop test results very interesting to be fair.

The app bugs have improved in Android at least and the support is OK albeit a bit slow. I think they are definitely on the no UPF angle but their stuff does seem to be backed up by scientific research. It's also consistent with a lot of other folks in this area e.g Mindy Pelz, William Li.

I think the value is if you like to be guided and you have limited knowledge in this space. If you have already done a bunch of research then prob less so.

@pickledandpuzzled

Great to hear you're finding this thread helpful.

@ChillinwiththeVillains

Thanks, I will order that Glucose Goddess Method book then.

I was also already enjoying a lot of kefir, although not kimchi (yet).

Not being able to log exercise means spikes can't be accurately interpreted, so seems like a major weakness to me in this. I hadn't known exercise after meals reduced the insulin spike, so that's handy to have learned (even though I think it was general knowledge for a long time for people more educated in nutrrition than me).

@nevynevster

Good to hear you found the glucose and poo results helpful. I haven't got my poo results yet, no idea if the sample even arrived at its destination - no updates at all from them. The glucose results I've been looking at my glucose pattern and matching it up with my food/ drink intake, so got an idea but am hoping they will provide more in-depth insights. I will see I guess, fingers crossed those results make this whole thing more worth it.

The bugs on my iPhone 13 have been shocking for such an expensive programme. I had reason to contact my bank yesterday about a payment reference bug. The bank phoned me today, apologised, let me know what they are doing to rectify it, and sent me £40 for the inconvenience. What have Zoe done to help me with the bugs on the chat and logging food? Absoultely nothing - an email saying they will reply in 5 days by which time my glucose monitor will have finished.

I do find tbt logging of food very frustrating - as you say the bugs mean half the time it freezes and won’t upload (or save offline like MyFitnessPal and upload whrn it can).

I think there's probably a happy medium between Tim Spector money-grabbing and 'eat less move more'. There is increasingly solid evidence that calories in/out is really not an accurate model of how things work, and that's not just a Zoe fad thing.

I think it's telling that the glucose skeptics like Dr Guess on twitter do end up admitting variations on 'We just don't have the evidence, but weeellll having said all that it's probably good to limit glucose spikes!'

For me the proof is in the pudding (as it were!). My weight has hovered between 62 and 65 kg for the best part of 16 years, despite my best and varied efforts to get back to what I weighed pre-kids (including paying my 300-odd quid to Zoe!). A few months doing the glucose goddess and I'm back to 59kg. I'm definitely not eating fewer calories - my new favourite snack is cashew nut butter! - but following the G Goddess I am eating vastly more vegetables, fewer carbs and have redistributed my eating times so that I no longer have late-night snacks.

I agree about the helpful but out-of-their-depth Zoe helpdesk folk. There are some really glaring omissions in the programme (like what exactly a 'big' glucose spike vs a small one is) that they must be asked about over and over and over - I know I did. They shouldn't have to be scrabbling around for the answers!

As an ITU nurse of many years experience I feel I need to comment. Tight control of blood sugar in ICU was found to be detrimental because the methods in use caused too many episodes of very low sugar levels ( Hypoglycaemia or Hypos). Allowing for less strict control (but still within normal ranges) reduced the Hypos and so improved outcomes.
However the key point remains that patients who's blood sugar was managed within normal levels generally had better outcomes, even patients who were not diabetic.
What @tt9 says isn't exactly incorrect, but I think can be misleading. I agree that Zoe is an imperfect approach and possibly too early in the science. However, they are using the results to improve and further the science which probably would not happen otherwise, certainly not as quickly.
@ClarkWGriswaldd It seems blood sugar control does matter even in non diabetics. There is a growing body of evidence to support this.
I do agree with @MrsKypp about Zoe's implementation of the glucose challenges as I've just started this myself and have the same issue; how to clarify the level of "spike". I even find the term "spike" to be misleading as that shape varies depending on the values used in the graph axis. Compress the graph and a gentle rise can look like a spike and vice versa. Personally I think the term rise is less ambiguous.
@MrsKypp thank you for not getting the post deleted, it has been useful for my own Zoe journey. Clearly Zoe have but yet responded to this issue despite, I have discovered, many members express the same concern.

Reading this thread has prompted me to look further into other people's experience.
I note that the same food scores differently for different people, so there is some personalisation as opposed to just generic responses/advice.
While using the glucose monitor there is the opportunity to see how exercise (and other things) affect your glucose response. In fact one of the challenges suggests this. You can log exercise on the Libre app when taking a reading. (Use the 'Add Note' section / option). You can even do this retrospectively.
I assume Zoe doesn't log exercise or take it onto account because the effect is going to be highly variable, not only between individuals, but for the same individual depending on a large number of variables. This makes it almost impossible to judge any impact with any degree of certainty. However, that's just my thoughts, has anyone asked Zoe about this?
I'm on the early stages of the Zoe 'experience' and it's certainly not perfect.
I've not had issues with the app on the android platform and the chat operators have been helpful.
However I am learning things I would not otherwise have done and although I was aware of the 'Glucose Goddess" and her advice it is helpful to see how my own body responds. It is an expensive program and I did have to think carefully about the cost. Discovering that I'm pre-diabetic was certainly a spur.
To a certain extent I can't blame Spectre and co monetising their knowledge, who wouldn't., of given the chance? As to value for money that's much more difficult to judge.
Given all this, I will reserve my judgement until the end, or at least much further into the program.

This is me, and I've noticed I need complex carbs. Tried reducing carbs a couple of weeks ago and was soooo low! (Oats, brown rice, quinoa.) I have some days/ meals that are vegan curries but do seem to need chicken breast, sardines and salmon once a week. A lot of cheese too.

I listen to the Zoe podcasts though as they're fascinating, and also
Michael Mosely's and have improved the amount and range of plants I eat and more fermented foods. And more protein plant foods eg beans. Some tips from glucose goddess (acv or balsamic vinegar on most things 😂) and a hellova lot of nuts. Beetroot seems to suit me too.And the dark chocolate! Its really helped. I couldn't be arsed with all that monitoring!

Avoiding upf is the main thing. Don't eat much bread but it's the only upf thing I do eat now.

Really good Facebook page on upf foods in uk supermarkets.

How would someone get a glucose monitor independently of Zoe? What is the brand name? And where is the best place to order it from? If doing it independently, how long makes sense to monitor for (I'm assuming they have a life span and then you have to discard them or buy another one)?

@waistchallenge You can buy the sensor independently. Cost is around £50 in the UK. They last for up to 14 days. Zoe uses the FreeStyle Libre brand which is helpful as you can use these with an app on most modern smartphones (best to check first). Separate monitors to read the sensor seem to be very expensive so this is probably the best option. This is just for continuous monitoring which eliminated the need for repeated blood samples by pricking your finger. A cheaper, but more time consuming, less convenient (and possibly more painful) option would be a regular monitor, test stripes and finger prick devices.

Thanks so much for the information. I did obviously google it but it's all a bit too much information at once. As a one-off it seems acceptable but the cost would be prohibitive for continuous use.

Further to @MrsKypp 's original post this is my response from Zoe chat, and my reaction.
Hi, Larry, Shelly here, one of the Nutrition Coaches 👋Thank you so much for your patience in us getting back to you, I hope you are well.We understand that having tangible blood sugar values to reflect on can be helpful. But it's also important to think about the bigger picture when it comes to a normal blood sugar range.Here are some things to look out for while you’re wearing your sensor:The overall shape of your curve: Notice the overall shape of your curve over time. We want low to small changes, rather than steep peaks and dips (as shown in the graph below).Range: How much does your blood sugar vary throughout your day? What is the range between your highest and lowest readings? A smaller range is better.Fasting glucose: What are your blood sugar levels like when you wake up? 4.0 - 5.9 mmol/L before meals is considered ‘normal’ for people without diabetes.Clearance time: How long does it take your blood sugar to return to normal after a meal? For people without diabetes, blood sugar levels will generally return to baseline levels 2-3 hours after eating.Rise: When does your blood sugar rise? How high does it go? According to Diabetes.co.uk a normal blood glucose range for non-diabetics is:
• 4.0 - 5.9 mmol/L before meals
• Under 7.8 mmol/L at least 90 minutes after meals
• Please note that postprandial glucose responses (glucose responses straight after eating) under 11.5mmol/L are normal, immediately after eating. The 7.8 figure above is for values 90mins-2hrs after eating a meal.Crashes/dips: Does your blood sugar dip below baseline after eating any foods or meals? Notice whether this leaves you feeling feel more hungry, tired, or irritable.It's also worth remembering that the green/red bar in the Librelink app indicates a set 'target glucose range' to help individuals with diabetes. This is what the sensor was originally developed for and is standardised for all ZOE members, so not personalized to you. I hope this was helpful.If you'd like some further guidance on how to interpret your blood sugar response we'd be happy to take a look at your data. The caveat to this is any medical-based or diagnostic questions are not within our scope to address and are best discussed with your GP.We will also provide you with a comprehensive report on how well your body responds to sugar in your results.
In the meantime, you may find our Health Academy Articles on blood sugar interesting

🔍My response:
Thank you Shelly. Yes that is useful information however doesn't really address my issue of how do you classify a "small, moderate or large" spike. From the information you provide these terms are useless, so why ask participants to grade spikes in this way? It is not helpful.
In terms of the curve, I understand what you mean but in the Libre app the curves look very different depending on whether you are looking at the graph for a few hours, shown when you take a reading, or the 24 hour graph. This is due to the spacing of the values on the axis changing. So again some fixed reference is needed otherwise steep peaks can be seen as gentle slopes and vice versa. For this reason I find the term "spike" unhelpful.
This is really basic stuff in terms of science and presentation of data, so I'm very surprised at the use of such subjective terms as small, moderate and large, especially without reference points. For use in the general population I can somewhat understand this, but it needs some kind of reference e.g. a rise of x - y mmols is small, y -z mmols is moderate, above z is large. This provides a much clearer picture for the participants and avoids relying on very subjective and imprecise terms. It also avoided the need for interpretation of what constitutes a "spike".
In comparison to a cat, a mouse is small. Yet in comparison to an ant, a mouse can be considered big.
Please don't take any of this personally. It is frustration at a methodology claiming a scientific approach (that I'm paying a lot for) using such 'fluffy' terms when it could easily do much better.I have done some "research" into other users experience and found many others who feel the same about this. They feel it makes the programme appear very amateurish. Please consider improving this aspect of the programme.

@waistchallenge How did you edit your post?
I'm new here and can't see that option.
Correction, I notice it is there when you preview the post but is there an option to edit after posting?

@Lazz21 it's there if you click on the three dots in the top right corner of the post, but the option is not always available.