Zoe app - totally amateur for the high price

[MrsKypp]

I am enjoying the glucose monitor although I could have saved loads of money if I'd just bought that instead of Zoe.

I keep asking Zoe what exactly do they mean by big / moderate / slight spike in blood glucose after a meal. In mmol as per the glucose monitor.

They won't, presumably can't, answer. So it's completely subjective guesswork then as to what a big spike is, or a moderate one etc,

Their app asks us to say how much of a spike we saw on our monitor, yet refuse to say how many mmol. How can I possibly answer that accurately when the glucose monitor works in mmol while Zoe works with descriptors "big" "moderate" "small" ?????

I am SO DISAPPOINTED I have spent so much money on this unscientific vague subjective annoying Zoe thing.

Photo attached: we had been chatting but she couldn't answer so simply diappeared.

@ClarkWGriswaldd

By this, (quote below), do you mean that Zoe's final advice is always -

"The answer is ALWAYS add extra virgin olive oil, nuts, kefir and kimchi basically. You end up with a really calorific plate in front of you as you battle to turn a poor score into a good one"

They are not taking exercise into account other than saying no exercise during the test fasting periods. I would have liked to have had the opportunity to log my exercise so it could be tracked and compared. I can see from the CGM that post prandial exercise leads to a significant drop in my blood glucose, even just a few exercises with the resistence bands.

@MrsKypp

I think what I'm (badly!) trying to say is that, for example , you sit down to eat your dinner one night

You have maybe some rice, some breaded chicken and maybe some peas. And for pudding you have some mango chunks and a biscuit.

And you input all this into the app and your 'personalised' score might be 52. Which will be being caused by the rice / breaded coating / mango / biscuit.

If you slosh on some EVOO and throw in nuts and have a glass of kefir, you'll see your score go up probably quite a bit

So on the one hand - you're feeling all virtuous because your Zoe score is now 75 or whatever but you've added probably 600 calories + when the reality is that, although a meal of breaded chicken, rice and peas isn't the heights of healthy eating, it's a very 'normal' meal to eat on a semi regular basis

I've actually lost track of the point I was trying to make 😀 Hopefully you sort of see where I'm coming from

And I think the program will annoy you immensely @MrsKypp as you're clearly a person who really questions this stuff. As we all should.

@tt9 is so right saying that personalised eating is coming. But Zoe have peaked too soon here without enough science backing.

Right now, from where I'm standing, it's just 'eat better, move more' dressed up in some pseudo science

I’ve been toying with joining Zoe. I don’t understand about the CGM. They supply one, I gather, but do you need to replace the sensors after they run out if you want to continue to monitor? I thought they were quite pricey.

You only get 1 CGM and then they give you analysis based on that and also on some other tests they do.

I've just started the food coaching bit, it's a bit annoying partly because the app contents are quite odd. I struggle to see how I can get enough protein into a meal without the meat element dragging down my scores. Even if it's a relatively healthy piece of meat.

On the other hand, I think there is some scientific backing to what they are doing. And I don't believe in the simple count calories as not all calories are equal inside our body so it does make sense overall. You could probably do it yourself I'd say if you had the sort of mind/discipline for it

@FinallyHere and anyone else who knows about this,

I've had so much fun today eating all the wrong stuff and seeing what my glucose spikes would do.

How would you rate this as a day? Does it look terrible or medium or not bad considering?

I have eaten chocolates, and M&S cake I bought on the way home from work, then the family had a Just Eat delivery of burgers and chips tonight because my DS was doing some plastering downstairs and making such a mess it took us all ages to clear up. He was doing a good job though, just created mess everywhere else!

Back on the tests tomorrow with cheese for breakfast. Did the rice test yesterday so needed a day off in between.

@ClarkWGriswaldd

I see exactly what you mean now. Thanks for your further clarification!

That is really a bit ridiculous then, so I could eat all the bad stuff I had today, but add in kefir, lettuce, sauerkraut or whataver they rate very highly, and hey presto, my result would be good?

You are right, I am questioning it all because there have already been several things on the app that honestly seem more like my teen DS' school projects.

The chat agent tried really hard to get the answers, but how rubbish Zoe asks us to describe our glucose spikes, but without a model to illustrate what high / moderate / low spikes look like. So we are guessing then with no reference ranges, no sample spikes ...

I'm not convinced I trust the reliability of the finger blood test either. I'm waiting for my results though, and hoping they'll reveal useful stuff and I go on to lose 2 stone without trying. I'd be super slim and very happy. Overall though, I think I agree with your conclusion that it's too early and they don't really know enough yet. Raking in the ££$$$$$ for them though that's for sure.

I did the Zoe program last year. The cgm info was interesting - it showed that I have massive blood sugar spikes after eating white rice and any kind of bread. It also confirmed that late-night snacking is really bad for my blood sugar, especially cornflakes!! But I think the food scoring is frankly, mostly bollocks. Lemon juice, for instance, was a zero for me, but if it's the squeezy stuff in a plastic lemon, it was something like 97! I also think scoring by blood sugar response is an overly narrow and rigid way of thinking about food. Fresh figs from our tree in the garden give me a huge blood sugar spike, but is that really as bad as eating a mars bar? I greatly doubt it!

I actually found the glucose goddess (total cost 11.99 or so) more helpful practically, and I barely even needed to buy her book to put her central insight into practice, which is start your meals with vegetables first. I now try to have at least 3-5 portions of veg then whatever protein or carbs I'm having after that. I've lost 3kg in a couple of months and my energy levels are dramatically higher. You can't really go wrong eating more vegetables!

Zoe did none of that, it's too persnickety about whether healthy food a or healthy food b is marginally better or worse for you. Personalised nutrition may be the future, but right now it's way overhyped.

I found this twitter thread very enlightening about the overhyped claims around glucose spikes and monitoring. https://twitter.com/Dr__Guess/status/1642575307340230657?s=20

My instinct is that flattening your spikes is probably a good thing, other things being equal - but sometimes they aren't!

@Tothemoons

Thanks for the tip about the Glucose Goddess!

Your comments on the Zoe scoring are very interesting...and shocking.

Yes, I totally agree: glucose levels are important but only part of the picture.

I have learned that the food feedback from Zoe is NOT personalised (!!!)

They even state it when you do the food tests - that not completing the test as per the guidelines won't change the advice they give you, only the blood glucose readings in Libre. So in other words, they don't look at each person's food test results, but give generic pre written advice.

That is a rip off in my opinion.

But yes, I am only half way through the blood testing period. Maybe I will get some great feedback and help from them that changes my mind.

I feel a bit ripped off too...but if it gets me focusing on improving my health for the 12 months I signed up for then I guess it will be worth it.

I didn't discover the glucose revolution/glucose goddess hacks until after I had signed up for ZOE (and was waiting for the kit). I thought these were much more useful!

I've got my results back now. The positive is the app seems to be better now - certainly easier/more reliable to enter recipes.

I'll attached my results from the main challenge (I chose porridge and almonds) - and the results were exactly as you would expect from the glucose goddess. I guess it was good to see it working on me but...

carbs vs fats...

Move after meals...

Food ordering...

For those of us not in the know, @JewelDragon , what is your point with the different screenshots?

I'm interested to come across the thread as I really wanted to do it.

Some questions-

Do you think it's really relevant for a handful of non standard people, but most of us are just typical need to eat less and move more types? In other words, it's good to find out if you've got an issue but irrelevant if you haven't.

Do you think they are just harnessing vast amounts of data for future scientific use?

I think I need to look up glucose goddess. Could anyone summarise the take home?

This is the absolute truth. Zoe is the latest diet fad.

The Zoe app is very buggy and won't let me chat with them or even log any food or drinks.

I had to restart my phone each time to unfreeze the Zoe app, for it to freeze again immediately after I started logging food.

What a rip off, I am getting so fed up with it all and regret wasting my money.

@JewelDragon

Thanks for uploading those screenshots. So all they do really is confirm what has been known for ages, that carbs cause an insulin spike and protein doesn't.

We are better off buying the glucose goddess for sure.

@pickledandpuzzled

Yes, I think they are indeed just harnessing vast amounts of data for future scientific use

And at the same time, making a massively huge amount of money for themselves.

ZOE:

The chat support is dreadful. They are conscientious people I think, they go away and search for the answers, but they are basically young call centre agent type staff with no knowledge.

The app is malfunctioning today but nobody there to reply and no logging of meals is possible - without logging meals the entire thing is useless.

I regret paying so much money for this rip off.

And another thing - the app switches on the little green light when I try to log meals - so they are either watching or listening. This is on my iPhone 13.

I’m type 1 diabetic so wear a libre to monitor my blood sugar levels. What seems to be missing from the zoe approach is that all sorts of things impact on levels. I can eat the same thing, do the same activity, give myself the same dose of insulin and no two days are the same. Hormones, sleep, stress etc all have an effect on levels. So does eating protein alongside carbs.

It seems crazy to me to have people fretting over their blood sugar rising and going back down again - exactly as it is supposed to.

@PercyPhelps

I completely agree with you.

Zoe doesn't even provide the option to add in when you exercise.

I have well and truly wasted my money on this rubbish.

Screenshot attached of the Zoe app chat (only place to report faults)

@pickledandpuzzled
Glucose goddess hacks:

1. Eat foods in the right order (fibre, then proteins and fats, then starches and sugars)
2. Add a veggie starter to one meal a day
3. Stop counting calories
4. Have a savoury breakfast
5. Eat any type of sugar you like - they're all the same
6. Pick dessert over a sweet snack
7. Have one tablespoon on vinegar a day before the meal that will the highest in glucose
8. After you eat, move
9. If you have to snack, go savoury
10. Put some "clothes" on your carbs (avoid eating starchy or sweet foods on their own - "clothe" them with protein, fat or fibre to slow down glucose absorption. For example, have Greek yogurt with your brownie, or ham with your bread)

The screenshots are from the 5 day Zoe challenge (which you don't need to do and they don't use the results in anyway - it is to pad out the use of the libre (which lasts for two weeks), which you only actually need for muffin day) - they prove the glucose goddess hacks #1, #8 and #10

I agree about the chat @MrsKypp - they do try (at the very least to find right thing to cut and paste) but I've been frustrated by the reading comprehension and the drop down menu to generate an AI response.

Agree with most of this thread and the Glucose Goddess recommendation. Zoe only showed me this info the day before my CGM expired. Would have found it useful.

@JewelDragon

You are so right, I just couldn't agree with you more.

They don't use our results, they even say so on the app - so it's generic pre-decided advice they are giving.