MMR on Dispatches

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Channel 4 9pm Thursday, a programme (another one!) about MMR. That's it really, just thought it might be of interest to some.

Also the government and health chiefs were well aware of the risks of thiomersil years ago, but hid it from the public. I had no idea that there was mercury in the jabs I allowed to be given to my son, nor that thiomersil-containing vaccinations were abolished in many countries and that in the US paediatricians were calling for it to be removed. Would I have fought for him to have thiomersal-free jabs had I known? Of course! Was I informed? No. And that (along with BSE and the war) is a very good reason to mistrust government officials on the whole issue of vaccination safety.

I would agree with Jimjams that it is laughable to suggest that a child would "suddenly" display autism symptoms at about 18mths. Surely then this is an argument against those who state that shortly after receiving the MMR jab their child started to display autism symptoms, having been perfectly fine beforehand? If, as jimjams says, most children display (in hindsight) some symptoms prior to 18 mths, then how can the MMR be responsible? (Don't mean to be inflammatory by this btw, and please correct me if I have misunderstood or am missing something)

Because bonym- the children who have regressive autism are unusual- they don't display symptoms before hand. They do things like point, begin to talk. Then in the case of the MMR damaged children within weeks have changed completely. Physically as well (continual diarrhoea and seizures are common problems that start at the same time). This is why they are so different.

In my son's case- although he had sensory issues early on his big regression came after 12 month (illness at 11 months). He stopped gaze monitoring, lost words and completely changed his diet so he went from eating everything to only eating bread. Now whether the sensory issues themselves were enough to trigger autism I don't know- but I suspect his regression (following the illness) made him more severe than he would otherwise have been.

Thanks jimjams - apologies, I wasn't aware of the difference.

The mum's I've met with MMR damaged children tell very different stories to other mums. BUt their stories are very similar to each other. Remember within the autistic spectrum there are subgroups of children. There are many different routes to autism.

Interestingly the (little) research that has been done shows that physiologically the MMR damaged children are different as well. The obvoious difference is in the gut, but they also have peptides but no IAG in their urine iirc. DS1 is more usual- high IAG high peptides. NT kids are low/no IAG low/no peptides. Search for Shattock and you'll get more.

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yeah that's it Socci. The stage before pointing.....

Yes, very eloquent as always Aloha.
It is truly amazing really that they never told parents. My mam thinks i don't half GO ON sometimes about vaccines but when that came out my mam was in shock,she actually said "tut, they can't have been putting mercury into babies!!!!", took her a while to realise why i get so upset every time a vaccine looms!

I've no idea what to do with new baby, as i imagine it will be made VERY hard to get any choices, even privately!!

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But what about the patent applications-agree with Crunchie-they were there in b and w in the programme and no explanation in the statement from Dr Wakefield?
thought it was hideous that they used a picture of the little girl from ireland that diedfrom measle, showing her dead, laying in state in a white dress. Scaremongering or what

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Can someone give me, in as few words as poss, a critique of last night's prog? I didn't see it but my mum is raving about how marvellous it was and I want to shoot her down in flames when I see her tomorrow.

Thanks to Jimjams and coppertop for helping us understand all of this.
I for one really appreciate your input on this, I don't have enough time to trawl through all of the web sites and get all of the papers involved.
Your intelligent and articulate messages have been just what we need to understand the subject matter.
I must admit to having gievn ds 2 dtp injections then realising there was mercury in them, so not doing the third. My dr says that he is probably immune, but the third would make sure he was.. this doesn't really make sens to me as I thought the first injection should prime the immune system, then the second challenge it, then the immune system should remember the disease antigens..
anyway, what is the general concnesus on what to do with part vaxd kids for dtp now?
I am leaning slightly more towards the MMR as there are no familial problems with immune mediated disease and ds has no intolerances. He is devloping well and babbling and pointing etc.
But I just get this cold chill when I think of how the gvmnt f**ks up just about everything it touches!
Anywa, sorry if I have left anyone out, and hope that jimjams et al keep coming here and giving us such useful info (don't want to sound sycophantic, but can imagine that day in day out you are all giving us details of your kids and answering our questions, must be stressful at times)

No Socci but he regressed from 12 monthsish- got ill at 11 months (ds2 started pointing at 12 months and 1 week). Another big change he showed was that he refused to walk on grass and would sit hovering his legs in the air so they didn't touch the ground. We thought it was hilarious and took loads of photos (I shiver at that now). Thought it was a consequence of his eczema- of course now know it was an increase in sensitivities. He still doesn't like touching grass- and often refuses to walk on it- even with shoes on!

biketastic- you could get immunity checked. A few people I know have found that their children don't have high antibody levels to everything even after completing the course. Others will have good immunity after 2 shots. An antibody check would make it easier to make an individual decision I guess.

No Socci but he regressed from 12 monthsish- got ill at 11 months (ds2 started pointing at 12 months and 1 week). Another big change he showed was that he refused to walk on grass and would sit hovering his legs in the air so they didn't touch the ground. We thought it was hilarious and took loads of photos (I shiver at that now). Thought it was a consequence of his eczema- of course now know it was an increase in sensitivities. He still doesn't like touching grass- and often refuses to walk on it- even with shoes on!

biketastic- you could get immunity checked. A few people I know have found that their children don't have high antibody levels to everything even after completing the course. Others will have good immunity after 2 shots. An antibody check would make it easier to make an individual decision I guess.

OK I've forced myself onto Brian Deer's webiste. ROFL @ the Fagin like character seeling autism cure products (who incidentally I have never heard of- and as I said before I'm on a lot of autism lists!)

Had a look at the patent applications. Deer seems to be making a big hoo ha about the fact that the patent application was filed before the publication of the research. This is not surprising as the time from submission of a paper to publication can take a long time. Research is always published long after results iyswim (for example I knew about the potential link between autism and thimerosil and autoimmunity when ds2 was born- almost 3 years ago- the first decent paper on this was published in June this year).

Also looked at the patent. it is not for a vaccine to challenge MMR as far as I can tell. It is a patent for a prodcut to be used to treat "MMR virus mediated disease. It goes onto say "Such a composition may be used as a measles virus vaccine and for the treatment of inflammatory bowel disease and regressive disorder". In other words the main use of this product would be to treat children with regressive autism and bowel disease. If you then read the later bit it is all to do with using the product as a treatment for MMR damaged children. It is quite clear that the main purpose of the product is for treatment. Brian Deer must have known that- I can't see how the application can be construed any other way.

As to what Wakefiled was doing at the time. He has said that before publication of the original paper he tried to meet many times with dept of health officials to explain his research and findings and look at whether it would make more sense to return to single vaccines whilst further research was carried out into what was going on. Initially they refused to meet him, and then gave him the brush off. He has said that he was so concerned that he then went public. Now remember this is a man who will have become emotionally involved with the families he was dealing with. He is a doctor- so in other words is working hands on with the children. As you may have guessed from earlier comments performing medical procedures on severely autistic children is traumatic for all concerned (honestly I have not met a doctor yet who has managed to look in ds1's mout- they stop as they (the doctor) find it too distressing. Ditto blood pressure- he was admitted to a children's ward recently (couldn't wee) and no-one could go through with a getting blood pressure reading). Now Andy Wakefield was carrying out soe quite invasive work on the children- he couldn't have failed to become moved by the children's condition. He was also seeing something novel- a new form of bowel disease, and a bunch of kids with very similar stories. He started off thinking there was nothing in it - and then changed his mind. He tried to share his concerns with the proper channels and was given the brush off. He had no idea how many children were being affected so went public. Personally I think he did a brave thing- and it was probably partly as a result of working hands on with severe autism. He understood the consequences of autism in a way the authorities don't seem to.

OK - maybe I'm misreading it- I have sent the following email to Brian Deer:

"I've read the patent application on your website. I'm a little confused -
you say the patent application is for a vaccine to rival the MMR. However
reading the application it is quite clearly an application for a product to
treat MMR virus mediated disease - in other words an application for a
product to potentially treat children who have been damaged by MMR.

I would be grateful if you could explain how I am misreading this.

Many thanks"

Miggy - "thought it was hideous that they used a picture of the little girl from ireland that diedfrom measle, showing her dead, laying in state in a white dress. Scaremongering or what"

No more scaremongering than the many programmes that have been biased the other way - ie trying to convince us MMR is not safe. They use video footage of very autistic children in those and that's just as bad.

I'm actually quite surprised the reaction this programme's got because, although I have to confess I'm not a fan of Brian Deer and the way it was tackled was very sensationalist, the majority of programmes I have seen have been biased the other way and that to me is extremely frightening.

Do you have any data on that gobbledigook? I did a little mini media (newspaper) survey and found that about 80% of the reports were por-MMR. The Daily Mail runs a single vaccine campaign, Private Eye is anit-MMR but everything else is pretty much pro (apart from the odd article like {http://observer.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,6903,647836,00.html\this} by Nick Honby- and look how old it is- still one of my faves though- and not exactly rabidly anti vaccination- quite reasoned really).

TV wise channel 5 did Hear the Silence with the subsequent debate which was anti-MMR - but I can't think of anything else that has tried togive anything other than both sides (and usually ends up being very lame and not really saying very much at all).

InN fact the severely autistic child I've clapped eyes on on TV more often than any other is MadDrFitzpatricks and he wheels him out to argue in favour of the MMR. I'd still like to know where he got his trampoline from.

try the link again!

Oh right, no JJ, it's just my impression so maybe it's just coincidence that most of the programmes I've happened to stumble across have been more anti-MMR - well, actually, they try to give a balanced view but usually don't.

Anyway, as I say, it may just be the few I've seen.

Have def seen very sad video footage of children with autism where parents are claiming MMR is responsible. I'm not arguing with that or saying it's wrong to do it, I'm just saying that showing how devastating measles can be is no worse. Have to admit showing the little girl 'laying in state' was a bit tasteless though.

well personally I can't imagine why any parent would want to show their dead dd on TV, or their severely autistic son stimming away either for that matter. Have a watch next time though- I'll bet you a fiver that the autistic child you see more often than any other is MadDrFitzpatrick's. I feel for the poor boy every time I've seen him. he's the only child I've seen on TV that I can actually picture sitting here at the moment- and that's because I've seen him so often (apart from the actor who played the lead in Hear the Silence- I can picture him- but he was on screen for 2 hours- and I watched that with interest as my friend's son had a role in that, and her other son was an extra).

I'll post any reply I get from Brian Deer btw

biketastic, we got our dd tested for immunity recently. (She's 3 and this was for boosters)
I am loathe to inject her with anymore but we did just get her the dtap booster.
She had Infanrix when she was a baby, it's dtap without mercury and with accelular pertussis. It's not readily available but if you ask for it and explain your concerns, they may give you it. I had a few chats with health visitor and she kept one for me and gave me no problems about it. I didn't give polio booster as she offered me the oral and i politely declined.

Just letting you know +