Vaccination dilemma ......

[Ghosty]

Right, this could possibly open a huge debate, which is fine, but I am wondering what you mumsnetters would do in this situation.
New Zealand is currently in the grips of a Meningococcal Disease 'epidemic'. Since the early '90s 5500 people have contracted the disease, 220 people have died and more than a 1000 have suffered serious disabilities or brain damage. This is in a country with a small population of only 4 million people (nearly half of which live in Auckland, where I live).
Currently in Auckland's Starship Hospital (children's hospital) there is an 8 month baby who has had her hands and feed amputated because the damage the disease caused her. A 10 month baby died two weeks ago.
Scary stuff.
The Government has rushed through and immunisation programme and children aged 6 months and up are currently being immunised.
I have a DD who is 6 months old and a DS who is 5 years old.
So ... my dilemma ...
a) Would you trust a 'rushed' vaccine? Apparently it usually takes up to 20 years to license a vaccine and this has been lisenced in 3 years.
b) My DS was vaccinated against Meningitis C when he was a baby in the UK. Does anyone have any idea if being vaccinated against 2 strains of the disease would have an effect on him.

There has been an enormous hype in the media about getting your child vaccinated against this 'deadly disease' ... and to be honest, I would go for the vaccine ... as I did with DS when he was a baby (both my children have had Meningitis scares - lumbar punctures etc and the thought of one of them contracting it scares the proverbial out of me) ... but for some reason I am hesitant this time. The vaccine is so new that they are still only trialling it for babies under 6 months.

Any thoughts??

Doh ... DS is 4 ... wishful thinking, wanting him to be out of his 'four year old phase'

No idea. I did all the vaccines with mine but I dont know about one not properly tested.

Has this particular vaccine been licensed in other countries? Could be they rushed it through knowing the results from studies done elsewhere.

Oh Ghosty i don't know what i'd do !!

I do know i'd be worried about BOTH sides the same as you and not go into it blindly trusting this new vaccine.
I really am no help i just wanted to say that i feel for you being in such a dilemma!!!!

I agonise over every vaccine!
My uncle died of meningitis a few months ago, in his early 50's and healthy, just went to bed and died so the disease puts the fear of God into me...........but so do vaccines

You definitely need some more information dont you Ghosty before you can make your decision. You have my full sympathy. Have you done a search on the internet to see if there is any more info out there not issue by your government?

If you dont get any replies for mumsnetters in the know tonight you might need to bump your message up in the morning huh to get the daytime users. Someone on here will be able to help you, I'm sure of it.

Ghosty - I am not sure what I would do
Do you know what the vaccine is? e.g. a trade name or a manufacturer/what meningitis strain
Is it likely that it is a vaccine used elsewhere in the world and the licensing has been rushed through in New Zealand?
There is some American information I found here
If your son was immunised in the UK - did he have hib? because that is another strain of meningitis.
The only other meningitis vaccine that I am aware of is "Menigivac A&C"(sp?) which is for meningitis A & C but it is not as effective against C as the single vaccine. I don't think it guarantees immunity which is why it is used for high risk people only (i.e.it is better than nothing)
If you could find out what the vaccine is I may be able to find some more info - HTH
Ju

Is this a men B vaccine then? Men B is the most common form of meningitis in babies. There's a vax in the States (and UK?) that is used in epidemics that responds to A, C Y and W-135 serotypes apparently.My vaccine Guide says that there is no safe vaccine for B meningitis, the one above can't be used in children under 2 and protection doesn't last long....Of course this could be a different vaccine- the book I have is the 2002 edition.

A lot of adverse reactions have been reported to the men C vaccine as well over here (which was introduced very quickly- perhaps too quickly for babies who aren't the risk group for C strain anyway).

Is this new vaccination making any different to the numbers of cases? Are the cases confined to particular groups? (i'm sure I remember reading ages ago that the Maoris and Pacific islanders are more at risk in NZ - which would make sense as meninigitis is more common with poverty/poor diet- and I know you don't have that ) Although don't know whether that was referring to this strain/epidemic.

I always start by looking at the risk my child is at from a particular disease. For example if ds2 goes off to university then it may well be worth him having a men C vax. If he had gone to day care at 3 months and not been breast fed then I would probably have given him Hib.

Those are the sorts of things you could ask before deciding. Also find out what else it contains- thimerosil etc (although that's unlikely in a NZ childhood vacc).

Whoops that's confusing. In my second paragraph the men C vax I'm referring to is the one given to babies- not the previous one used in epidemcis (which must be the same as the one JuA is talking about).

Thanks for the speedy replies ....
It is a men B vaccine ... and it is new as far as I know. I met a nurse recently who is involved in the trials and she said that the NZ strain of the Men B is different to strains of the same disease elsewhere ... she told me that the control group in one of the age groups in the trial were given the Norwegian strain of men B ... I have NO idea what that means ...
It is too early to see if the vax is doing anything as it was only started on the 19th July for children between 6 months and 5 years in South Auckland ... (huge media hype, my doctor was the first doctor to give the first child the vax and was on the national news!). Yesterday the first School children were being vaccinated. I have had a letter from my doctor asking me to bring DS in for his jab.
We live in a 'high' risk area ... in that we live in South Auckland where there is a huge population of Maori and Pacific Islanders and there is a lot of over crowding, poverty and poor diet ... but we don't live in that part of South Auckland IYSWIM so we aren't at risk ...
BUT ... the little girl in Starship at the moment is from Waiheke Island .... no poverty there, believe me! And there has been a second case from there (reported this morning) this time a woman aged 49 ... so really no one is safe!

Hi Ghosty - I'm going through similar thoughts, having thought I had made all the vaccine decisions for a while when I passed on MMR at 15 months (had the others though), and now this.

Firstly, I am absolutely positive that all the press releases about those 2 babies are coming from whoever has the job of promoting the vaccine campaign. After all think how much it would cost to advertise on the TV, and these two unfortunate families are doing the job for free. I don't want to undermine their suffering, but they are doing a brilliant job for the government, whether they like it or not. As you rightly say Waiheke Island is not exactly South Auckland but it's presumably as close as the PR people could find. A child suffering in Christchurch would presumably have a PR slant of "if only Christchurch has the vaccine..."

The NZ vaccine is apparently only "similar" to a properly tested vaccine in Scandanavia.

I just wish I could separate my profound distrust of the NZ media and concentrate on scientific fact - but oh, yes, there aren't any facts are there? - it's too new.

Shall we both anguish together Ghosty?

What an awful dilemma Ghosty. I'll think about it and post again if I've got anything useful to add.

The only thing that puzzles me slightly is..... if there was an effectve men B vaccine then I'm sure it would be snapped up in the western world. It really is needed more than a men C vax- and when the UK introduced men C a lot of other countries were very sinffy about that (although some have introduced it themseleves since). I'm not sure strain differences would be so large as make big differences in ability to produce a vaccination. of course I could be wrong.

I think you need to find out more before you can make a decision that you are happy with- but stay away from media reports etc- they're not reliable. See if google throws anything up. If I have time later I'll look through some of my more reliable sites - may not be until this evening though.

OTOH if you decide not to vaccinate you have to be confident either that your children are not at huge risk of contracting meningitis, or that the vaccination doesn't offer that great protection, as you are going to be bombarded with media images. Maybe see if you can find out data on people who are contracting the disease. For example meningitis C is most common in teenagers and young adullts- its not a simple link to poverty- students are particularly at risk- not because they're poor (some may be wealthy) but because thy tend to eat badly, not get enough sleep and live close together.....

I have found a couple of links here and here

Most of the stuff when you google is very media led but there is a phone number on the bottam of the first one (but no date, so it might be quite old) and the WHO site explains about the development and why it has to be a specific vaccine for New Zealand.

I sympathise absolutely, but again have no answers for you - it's just the same old dilemma with an extra scary twist. I've refused all meningitis vaccines for my 3 precisely because my research showed that they had been rushed through and not given the statutory testing time - here in the UK we had an advert showing children queuing to go on a slide, which made a virtue of the fact that there wasn't much of this vaccine available at the beginning (because it was all such a rushed job) and encouraging people to think they were lucky to be offered it. As always with vaccination issues, very suspect and psychologically dishonest on the part of the govt.. HOWEVER, meningitis was not one of the diseases I allowed myself to be worried about - I know it happens and I know it's devastating, but it is, mercifully rare, and the vaccine only protects against certain strains anyway, so I knew we would still wouldn't be able to cross it off the list, if you see what I mean. The point I'm getting round to (I never anage to be articulate when discussing vaccination - esp when faced with a member of the medical profession, I've noticed) is that if I felt there was a very real and immediate reason for having a vaccination, I would probably do it. With massive reservations. I alawys try to remind myself that not taking up vaccination is a luxury (though NOT an easy option, I still lose sleep over MMR) and that if I was a mother in 1950s Britain I'd move heaven and earth to get my girls the polio vax.

God, Ghosty, this is no help to you at all. I so wish I knew the answer. I guess it's just a risk assessment exercise. Will follow this thread with interest and great empathy. xxx

Hmm.. what a confused ramble. JimJams said all I was trying to say, beautifully, succinctly and in a short paragraph.

Jimjams ... as usual you are awsome!!
Thanks for all the replies ... and those links JuA ... very very helpful ...
I was literally on the verge of ringing up the Docs to make the appointment for DS' vax when I thought I would post this as I just had a niggle in the back of my mind about it. I am so glad I didn't now. I will sit on it for a bit longer and do a bit more research (or hopefully Jimjams will do it all for me LOL ) and then worry about it some more!

I have got a headache just thinking about it ...

Ok just my personal point of view but DD has had every vaccine going. She was born in Sydney and will be going to school there although im doing student nurse training in the UK now. She has had hepb, Menc, Diptet, HIB, MMR. And will be having varicella (Chicken pox) when the inlaws bring one over with them. I have worked with kids who have contacted major infections and have been very ill or died and would never want DD to have to go through that. I beleieve that as long as your child is fit healthy and well it is the parents social responsibility to vaccinate against all they can. The increase in mumps, rubella and measels inparticular in the UK is shocking and will if the current trend continues be epidemic within 5 years. If all healthy kids were vaccinated then those who are not able to be would stand a much higher chance of not contracting the conditions in their everyday environment. I would be first in the ques to protect my dd. I found that an understanding of how immunisation works on and with the immune system helped me to understand why the scare mongering is just that!
now ill get off my soap box.
p.s vested interest in NZ as ex p was born in rotarua! hope it all goes well!

Hmmm but maybe you wouldn't be head of the queue if you had a family history of automimmunity (see the recent Columbia paper for reasons why autoimmunity and thimerosil don't mix), had a severely autistic elder child- who developed normally and then regressed, had a PhD in Biology and had read the original research and realised that providing you ignore the cranks and stick to the research the scaremongering is coming from the government.

Righto off my soapbpx now (sorry just cannot bear being called socially irresponsible by someone who hasn't seen what happened to my child).

I envy your confidence, chloeb. Unitl my GP will agree to let me see the manufacturer's information leaflet that comes inside a vaccination packet, listing the side-effects, I'm going to assume there's something to worry about. My responsibility is to my child, first and foremost.

I don't normally post on immunisation threads as I don't want to get into a munsnet 'fight' but I think the point that chloeb2002 was making was that we should be encouraging healthy children with who wouldn't be deemed at risk from vaccines to be vaccinated precisely to try and establish some form of herd immunity in order to protect those children who cannot be vaccinated because they are immuno-suppressed or there is a reason why a vaccine may be dangerous to them. I know I will be vilified for saying this but in some ways those of us who do get our children vaccinated should be praised as we are putting our children at a very small risk in order to protect the children who are at much greater risk from the disease but cannot be vaccinated. Just don't want chloeb2002 who's name I haven't seen before to get scared off

I am certainly very grateful to all the mums who have given their kids MMR so I could be one that didn't. I think it's the rush nature of this one which is worrying Ghosty. When we went for the last DTaP my ds got the box and leaflet to play with as ours was the last dose. Surely they can't refuse to show you that leaflet 3P.

The HV who did dd's 3 yr check said she'd 'find out' if she could get one for me, but when I rang a week or so later said she couldn't because the leaflets are not written for patients. I asked my GP, but it was in the course of a discussion that became rather heated, and she brushed it under the carpet very swiftly.
I agree, KM. Am absolutely NOT criticising chloeb, and when I said I envied her her confidence I wasn't being sarcastic or cynical. I really wish I could get my girls MMRed - I want to, and had said I'd do it this summer holiday. But I can't bring myself to do it. I think it's a bit like religious faith - you either believe or you don't. I want to, but somehow can't make that leap of faith and trust that everything will be OK. I genuinely envy parents who turn up on the day armed with a packet of chocolate buttons, and don't give it a moment's thought because they believe completely that they're doing the right thing.

But keepingmum- no attempt is being made to identify children who are "at risk" as vaccinations are beyond reproach.

For example ds2 is a healthy 2 year old - no doctor is going to say he is at risk. However he almost certainly has a genetic predisposition to autoimmunty- as everyone on his paternal side has some sort of autoiummune condition. Research published in the last couple of months has shown that if you inject mice with a predisposition to autoimmunity with thimeorsil or thimerosil + vaccination then a) their brain structure changes (affecting a receptor that we know is afected in ds1) and b)they show autistic like behaviours. Yet 99% of drs in this country would probably recommend that he be vaccinated- as they haevn't even read this latest research.

Add to that the obvious predisposition to developmental disorders (as he has a speech disorder) and I truly beleive that my healthy child is best left alone as much as possible. (And I include things like antibiotics- as they well and truly screwed up ds1- ds2 has had then but only as a last ressort).

I'm not anti vaccination, but I think safety should come before money (if they were made in sterile conditions for example then crap like thimerosil wouldn't be needed). I also think that it should b recognised that any drug can have unwanted effects- and if something strange happens to a child after a vaccination then that shouldn'e be ignored or brushed aside as impossible (which is currently what happens). meninigitis is obviously horrible, vile and disgusting, but before vaccination is given to everyone the potential downsides should be well understood. If people knew the risks they were taking then I'm sure they would be happy to weigh them up (and I'm sure that in the case of an epidemic the majority of children probably would benefit from vaccination- but must be recognised that there will be some casualties)- bullying parents into more and more vax just isn't a sensible way to go about any vaccination program.

My last message was puched out quickly. I do hate being described as being socially irresponsible as I don't believe there is a parent in the land who would vaccinate their child - "for the good of society" if they thought that vaccination would damage their child. People vaccinate their children to protect their children- nothing else- that is their motivation. Which is fine- but I'm choosing not to vaccinate ds2 - at least before the age of 5 (except in exceptional circumstance- by 5 a lot of his brain development is well under way and less easy to be knocked off course) - for the same reasons- because I believe that gives him the best chance of not being damaged. Not because I'm some selfish cow who thinks "well I'm alright Jack so stuff the rest of you".

Jimjams, I do not for one moment think that you are being socially irresponsible in not vaccinating your second child, and I would like to believe that any decent GP would listen to your informed arguments and family history and let you make the decision to delay or decline vaccination. I work in clinical science and am quite often surprised at the delay between reading articles in journals and there impact in clinical practice. I agree that more research should be carried out to identify those children who make be at risk from vaccine damage, but unfortunately some children will become damaged before enough evidence (beyond anecdotal) can be acquired to make a proper study or secure funding for further research. I don't think any body truly believes that any vaccine will have no side effects. Every drug will have side effects some worse than others and some people more susceptible than others, unfortunately all eventualities cannot be covered during trials and sometimes although absolutely devastating for those effected the only way of finding out if something is safer than the disease is to try it in the population. The converse would be never to try new drugs or vaccinations which would be a backward step. I know you have reservations about the Yellow card system but it is there for people to use. I know it is easy for me to say that we sholdn't scare monger about vaccines and drugs because my family and I have not been affected, but I do believe that if enough people who have no real reason to fear vaccination avoid it, the ones who may really suffer are the ones we were trying to protect in the first place, ie those who can't be vaccinated. I am not someone who has blind faith in the system, but a healthy cynicsm, but even though I have the benefit of a scientific training I feel overwhelmed by the amount of information some more grounded in fact than others that I just want someone else to make a decision for me and may just believe that the advice given by the medical profession may balance the odds in the favour of the health of my child, since I don't believe they would want to harm them. Everything in life involves risk, it is understanding the relativity of risk that we probably lose sight of when the protection of our children is involved