Vaccination dilemma ......

[Ghosty]

Right, this could possibly open a huge debate, which is fine, but I am wondering what you mumsnetters would do in this situation.
New Zealand is currently in the grips of a Meningococcal Disease 'epidemic'. Since the early '90s 5500 people have contracted the disease, 220 people have died and more than a 1000 have suffered serious disabilities or brain damage. This is in a country with a small population of only 4 million people (nearly half of which live in Auckland, where I live).
Currently in Auckland's Starship Hospital (children's hospital) there is an 8 month baby who has had her hands and feed amputated because the damage the disease caused her. A 10 month baby died two weeks ago.
Scary stuff.
The Government has rushed through and immunisation programme and children aged 6 months and up are currently being immunised.
I have a DD who is 6 months old and a DS who is 5 years old.
So ... my dilemma ...
a) Would you trust a 'rushed' vaccine? Apparently it usually takes up to 20 years to license a vaccine and this has been lisenced in 3 years.
b) My DS was vaccinated against Meningitis C when he was a baby in the UK. Does anyone have any idea if being vaccinated against 2 strains of the disease would have an effect on him.

There has been an enormous hype in the media about getting your child vaccinated against this 'deadly disease' ... and to be honest, I would go for the vaccine ... as I did with DS when he was a baby (both my children have had Meningitis scares - lumbar punctures etc and the thought of one of them contracting it scares the proverbial out of me) ... but for some reason I am hesitant this time. The vaccine is so new that they are still only trialling it for babies under 6 months.

Any thoughts??

If you say that your child has been vaccine damaged - then you are assumed to be a loony mother who just didn't happen to notice she had a weirdo from birth. You probably think that because you have a scinece background etc that if something was to happen to your child that you would be taken seriously- you wouldn't- I can guarantee it. My opinion about my child counts for zilch, depsite my background and despite the fact I am way more up to date with current research than any of the drs I personally have come across. Because vaccinations do a lot of good they have been elevated to a postion where a lot of drs etc believe they can't possibly do any harm - ever- and that is a dangerous belief.

I'm more than happy for drugs etc to be tried on the population, but you know as well as I do that the yellow card system does not work. An alternative was trialled in Beckenham but none of the local GP's knew anything about it. So it was declared not to work (surpise! it didn't! because no-one knew about it).

When people do raise potential problems they are vilified. Take the whole Wakefield business. Wakefield, Shattock etc have been saying quite clearly for a number of years that they think about 10% of autistic cases are MMR triggered, they've recently revised that to 7%. In other words over 90% of cases of autism are caused by something else. The govt portrays them as saying that the increase is due solely to MMR (which they are not saying). They then fanfare more epidemiological studies which will sort out "once and for all" the MMR issue. Except they won't as the numbers affected are far too small. IN the meantime they refuse to consider why vaccine strain measles virus is sitting in the guts and spinal fluid of autistic children who are believed to have been MMR damaged (and have autistic enterocolitis) and instead just say it isn't there (excpet it is). These are children (and families) whose lives have been destroyed because their parents did what they were told they should do. Although 93% of families of autistic children are not in this position - that 7% deserve to be looked at properly, and difficult questions should be answered- not ignored.

As for what's happening to the other 93% - well obvisouly a combination- some will have conditions such as Frag X, others may have been thimerosil damaged, some may have had too many antibiotics, some may have had natural viral infections (or pre-natal exposure to rubella for example). All these children deserved to be looked at- and vaccination damage should be at least considered as a possibility (it isn't at the moment). it's too late for those children, but its not too late of unborn siblings - or unborn chidren with the same genetic predispositions.

The thimerosil link may come out as it is being phased out in the States ( and interestingly California has just recorded its first decline in number of autism cases- matching the removal of thimerosil- hmmmm) . If it does that will put the govt in a sticky position as we are the worst country in the world for routine use of thimerosil in childhood vax.

BTW I didn't think you were accusing me of social irresponsibility- but that's how the discussion started- and its a common accusation. (My friend was accused of it last week- she's in the do as little intervention as possible group- I used to think she was mad).

woah that wasnt meant to start a biggy! just as i said my opinion. I dont beleive that all parents who claim their kids have been damaged by vaccines are weirdos, likewise i dont believe that children who develop autistic/ fragile x sydrome.... minor issues like asthma, excema and others are always seen any differently than 'normal' kids? all of these conditions can have slow onset. Im interested in how parents and professionals can decide that immunisation caused the condition? As to the label issue. The gp should let you see one..... however to be honest if you look at the precautions for neurofen/ NSAIDS would you take them?? GI bleeds, ulcers.. the drug covers two pages of monitoring advise in my little book! etc...most drug companies are out to cover their ar*es! If in doubt put it down? A little like dry clean only labels!
When DD was due for her MMR of course i had concerns, based wholely on what i feel is scare mongering principally by the media? I dont deny that there are some instances of high risk kids being vaccinated but a knowledge of familiy history should help to prevent that? and they should then be demmed unsuitable for immunisation? I made my immunisation choices on my circle of friends and advice from my HV. In our practice there have been no reported examples of any severe side effects due to MMR. In my circle of friends all of them have had thier children immunised and had no problems. So i had dd immunised. and all i know is that should another child in chreche get any of the biggies and not be vaccinated and DD then contracts a milder dose i will not be impressed, but at least she will be ok? Thats just my opinion and I do empathise with people who have had problems that can be associated to immunisation, i guess i just think really they are in the minority and more steps should be taken to prevent this minority being vaccinated rather than the opt out option of present?

The thing I hate most about the current vaccination schedule is simply the way parents are treated like idiots and are covertly denied their right to make an informed decision by gp's twisting the findings of the latest research and acting as though what they say should go, even if they don't actually know what they're talking about.

I think they do this because they're scared that if everyone was presented with the plain facts and nothing more nothing less that more people would choose not to vaccinate, so they try and appear as confident as they can about the vaccines to convince as many people as possible that they should have it for their kids.

But how do we know this is having the opposite effect? Most parents aren't stupid, they can tell that information is being kept from them. If all the facts were laid out some parents might be scared of the risks but still go ahead with immunisation whereas atm they may be so suspicious of not recieving all the facts that they decide not to anyway.

If parents decide not to vaccinate their kids that in the end is their decision and they have to stand or fall by that but how terrible to be in a position where you have to make an important choice for your child and your own gp won't be honest with you!

I'm not raving (honestly) - I've just been on the recieving end of it lately. I've always been very pro-vaccination and thought that everyone should have their kids immunised (with the exception of those who are at higher risk) but my personal experience with it has made me so unsure that I almost decided not to give dd any more imm's. If thats what can happen with someone who was 'pro' imm's - no wonder so many people who start off as unsure decide not to in the end!

Ok, will stop the essay now - my basic point is find out as much as you can and make the decision for yourself (and your family) alone. And I'll be hoping the goverment and gps tell parents the truth and nothing but the truth about vacc's soon.

dd1 has been called for her booster MMR. i am in 2 minds over whether or not she will have it. Her skin is so bad atm, and her chest has been awful, i just dont want to overload her system and cause a worse flare up, which is what happened after other vaccines (except the booster Hib, where she went loopy and bounced off the walls for days).
dd2 has only had her baby jabs, not even had MMR yet. again she has bad ezcema, and has other health issues, so just dont want to upset the balence of her seemingly calm stomach atm. (no vomiting for 3 weeks now, still bad poops tho).

DH had to have the men c vaccine as his heart is bad, as has flu jabs each year. its not to protect others, but himself as the flu can be deadly to him.

I'm with wobblyknicks on this. I wasn't (and am not) against vaccinations, i just WISH that the truth was out about them. I am no expert but i consider myself intelligent enough to be given some information, go home and study it and then decide what's best for my child.
It was only through lots of reading and finding mumsnet that i even discovered that the DTP they were giving babies had mercury in.
How can someone inject that into my baby without me knowing?!! (As it happens they didn't as they'd run out of it and my dd got the DTaP).
She has had single measles and rubela jabs as i, like many was so worried over the MMR.
Shw wil be having blood tests hopefully to see if she needs any pre-school boosters as i also think that's a hell of alot of extra jabs when something like 90% of kids don't need boosters!!!

WK's I think that your are correct. By blatently distorting the actual facts the govt has destroyed confidence in the whole vaccination schedule. In a country already reeling from the whole BSE fiasco.

I started out very pro-vaccination- and I cringe now at how I marched ds1 off for his. I became concerned about the MMR (before I knew ds1 was autistic) so read the original research to reassure myself. Was stunned to discover that the original research didn't say anything remotely like the dept of health's line. Followed MMR for a year or so, and began to see real discrepancies as I became familiar with the published literature. The ds2 was born, and knowing what I knew about the MMR no longer trusted the dept of health to even know what the truth was. Read up on early vax and came across the whole thimerosil issue.

How do parents know chloe? Well in the case of MMR its fairly easy. The parents I know who have MMR damaged children had 15 month olds who were pointing, talking and generally being remarkably normal. They hadd MMR, started screaming within days/weeks (in pain) began with diarrhoea and major stomach issues, and regressed so they were no - verbal, poo smearing autistics. Urine samples at the Autism Research Unit tend to show that MMR damaged children have different results than non-MMR damaged urine samples. Then of course there are the children who have had samples taken (wtih great difficulty and huge obstruction from the govt- they had to go to the States) and have been shown to have vaccine strain measles in their spinal fluid. All pretty damming evidence. I'm not surprised you don't know anyone who this has happened to - only 7% of autistics appear to fall into this group. IN the new govt fanfare annpunced epidemiliological research- they will be examining 14000 children. Given that 7% of autistic cases are likely to be MMR damaged this will mean there will be aprox 7 cases of MMR induced autism in this sample. If you knew personally 14000 children you may know 7 who had been MMR damaged.

How do I know that the DTP's affected my son? I don't - I do know that a) he has a strong family history of autoimmune conditions and b)he received thimerosil. I believe this to have been his first hit. Whether it was enough to turn him autistic I don't know. He regressed following eczema herpeticum infection and a lot of antibiotics and acyclovir. How do I know he regressed? Well I have video (that I don't watch very often but have forced myself through). In the video he is a) talking, b) gaze monitering, c) sitting with his feet touching the ground, d) shifting attention without too much difficulty and e) playing peekaboo. He stopped talking a month after the single measles jab but I think it was unlikely to be linked. The regression started before hand.

Incidentally regressive autism used to be very rare- now it outnumbers other forms dramatically. Autism present from birth is actually fairly easy to recognise in retrospect as children born autistic often have strong sensory issues present from birth. TYhe sensory issues are strongly behind a lot of the autism, and a child who cannot bear to be touched, is completely freaked by noise etc is actually fairly easy to spot- even in a baby. My son's reaction to touch was something that changed dramatically with his regression.

As for the whole MMR thing. There are very good reasons for vaccinating girls- but there are pros and cons to vaccinating the whole population (especially in babyhood). Mumps is not a serious condition in children, and is rarely serious in adults. And measles is not as serious as it is made out to be- not in a well nourished western child. I had measles as a child. Felt rotton for about 3 days then a few days later was sent to recuperate at my friends house as she was off school with whooping cough and so we could entertain each other (andf my mum could go back to work). My mum was left permanently deaf in one ear from measles complications but she has spent enought time with ds1 to realise that the equation isn't always simple agrees with our decision.

(BTW Frag X would be present from birth- something like regressive autism may be caused either by genetic s - eg Rett's or by an environmental trigger acting on a genetic predisposition- and this is where things like vax come in).