If you decided to delay or to forgo MMR, how did health professionals react?

[usedtogotomars]

Just wondering about this (and haven’t yet decided) - do they respond in a way that respects your view or do they try to persuade you to have the vaccinations given to your child?

Why can't you?

What information are you missing? Or are you unable to trust any form of information except your own experience, which I do see would not enable any form of rational decision making.

Or have you done the analysis, got the figures, but they genuinely are close enough for the error of under-reporting to be high enough to significantly change the outcome of the analysis?

Again, i appreciate that there will be an error in every figure you look at. However, those errors only matter if the overall calculation you make brings the figures you are comparing to 'within the margins of error'.

If the figures are so enormously different that no imaginable margin of error would reverse the size of the two calculated risks, then you can be pretty confident that you know which way to go.

However, of course, no decision is risk free.

“I know there have been cases where a child has been permanently altered after vaccinations but it wouldn’t appear on official stats”

How do you know?

Bert, I think the OP has said that she knows of one case where the acknowledgement of vaccine harm came a long time after the original harm occurred.

she therefore believes that there are other cases in that 'limbo time' between harm thought to have occurred and confirmation of cause, and also others where harm was perhaps minor and therefore not ascribed to vaccination. The latter, of course, also applies to harm following or caused by an infections disease - mild hearing loss, minor brain damage etc may not be picked up or may not be accurately causally linked to the original disease once picked up in later years.

Sorry, another post - another reason you may feel you cannot make a statistical analysis and then act on the result is exactly that it is a statistical, population level analysis, and cannot tell you what will happen to YOUR child.

That is, of course, true. It will only tell you the likelihood, not whether your child will be the 1 in..... who are harmed, or the majority who aren't.

However, not can any other process of decision making. Not vaccinating is a decision, and you can't tell whether your child will be harmed by it. Vaccinating is a decision, and you can't tell whether your child will be harmed by it.

Largely no HCP questioned me with either child. I delayed all dd2 jabs until she was over 12 months - no reaction at all but tbf she was seen regularly by HV for weighing/advice/periodic checks so I wouldn't have been watched for neglect.

Dd1 I started the delay after she had the first few jabs. I think I had one jab appointment where I refused one jab and allowed the other - the nurse said something like 'I don't blame you I did this with my kid'.

Whether you get chased for jabs will depend on the area you live in and the demographic

My dds has all their jabs by 3

Where I was they will be lovely and polite and helpful. Tell them you are struggling to bf and the same people treat you like a turd.

My son's HV brought up delaying or not taking the MMR based on my history without me saying a word. I was somewhat taken aback but you might find it's easier than you think.

I had my first seizure within hours of receiving the measles vaccine as a child. I went on to have several others in a short period of time, ended up in hospital and then on anticonvulsants for a couple of years whilst they waited to see if I grew out of it. I did. I'm now vaccinated against most things but I got those as an adult.

My son is fully vaccinated including with chicken pox. I went ahead for two reasons.

1. Having discussed with various Doctors who have personal reasons for caring about my son's safety, having read my own medical notes courtesy of the rather charming Consultant checking the lump in my breast (benign) and having used my University library access to read all the papers I could find, I feel that the vaccination triggered the seizures it didn't cause them. And thus since my son might develop them the first time his temperature spiked, either from illness or infection, I'd rather it happened when we were watching him like a hawk post vaccination. As it happened, he was absolutely fine.

1. I had to tell a lady pregnant with her first longed for baby, that I might have infected her and the baby with Rubella as a 12 year old. Waiting for the scans to confirm her baby was okay whilst reading everything I could find about how awful Rubella was to unborn babies made me hate my parents in ways you probably can't imagine. It didn't matter that they were following medical advice not to vaccinate. It probably took until I became a parent myself to understand why they made the decisions they did.

There are some babies that are vaccine damaged. Even the makers of vaccines acknowledge this. Finally, following legal action. This does not mean that all babies suffer harm.

As a mother you want to know, what is the likelihood that your baby will be in this group - not how large it is in comparison to babies that will not be damaged.

WRT autism - I knew that my son was autistic (even though an official diagnosis based on a triad of impairments was years away) when he was 6 months old. MMR wouldn't cause him to be autistic but I didn't want him to have MMR on top of this. I took him to a private clinic for single jabs that were well spaced out. This was best for him and didn't compromise herd immunity.

Cant I’m really sorry but I don’t see any benefit to me answering questions then you asking them again and me answering them again

Bertrand because their parents have said so, and I believe them.

Dinosaur forgive me if I’m missing something but shouldn’t the pregnant woman have ensured she was vaccinated against rubella herself if it was a longed for baby?

@RaindropsAndSparkles, booster shots are always the same vaccine as was given the first time. "Booster" simply tells you that they augment the immune system response from the first dose. I'm not sure how you got the impression it would be something completely different.

Mild reactions to the first jab like soreness at the injection site, some fever, etc. are perfectly normal - it shows that the immune system has noticed the vaccine and is responding to it. They are not a reason to skip the second dose.

I'm a Yank and can't really comment on what the HV's or the NHS tells anyone. This is the US CDC's recommendation:

Children

ACIP and CDC recommend two doses of MMR vaccine routinely for children, starting with the first dose at age 12 through 15 months and the second dose at age 4 through 6 years before school entry. Children can receive the second dose earlier as long as it is at least 28 days after the first dose.

"Bertrand because their parents have said so, and I believe them."

How do they know? And why do you trust them but not HCPs?
I know people who have said all sorts of things but

Also, when I was pregnant (DSs now 17 and 11) it was not the norm to be vaccinated for flu and whopping cough when pregnant so I was spared this shaming and never contracted either.

Bert let’s just agree to disagree.

used, I think you've missed this in dinosaur's post:

It didn't matter that they were following medical advice not to vaccinate.

No, I understand that, but I think dinosaur had/has misplaced guilt there. I wouldn’t personally have given a male child with a history of adverse reactions to jabs in the family the rubella jab because of pregnant women. Pregnant women are adults with few exceptions and able to risk assess themselves.

@usedtogotomars It was almost 30 years ago so when she was a child, they didn't have a vaccination and she couldn't remember if she'd had the illness which is fair enough, I only remember because I was so angry and upset over it. Barely affected me in any other way and I'm always surprised when they test in pregnancy and I still have protection.

No idea why she hadn't pursued it as an adult, maybe because she felt that she didn't need to as all children around her were vaccinated (we weren't in the UK). Although I had a fight getting them to give me certain vaccinations as an adult that I missed as a child.

Ultimately it was her responsibility not yours, however. I’m sorry you felt such shame over something that wasn’t your fault, and I also think you were put in a very unfair position by being the one who ‘had’ to tell her.

@usedtogotomars I totally agree with the last part. Still haven't forgiven them for that.

Anything which causes your temperature to spike can cause seizures (and yes, there is a familial increased risk albeit small) so if he caught Rubella, Measles, Mumps, a bad Ear infection, the Flu, he might have had the seizures plus all the other lasting effects of those diseases.

Factor in that my Father has cancer and will have a weakened immune system til the day he dies, we rolled the dice on the probability he would be fine and he was. Suppose that should have been reason 3 really.

I will be doing the same with the baby I'm currently carrying although I think I will be asking for the Men B separately because all my friends with younger children who had temperature issues etc post vaccination, it's been that round which has caused issues.

usedto,

You haven't actually answered ANY of my questions, - I appreciate that the me asking, you evading has indeed gone round and round, so i am out.

You ha e asked me what information I am missing. I have answered.

You have asked me why I can’t look at statistics. I have answered.

So you are not missing any information, but you believe that your personal experience over-rides that which exists (despite the error information I pointed out)? And you cannot use ANY statistical information AT ALL, EVER?

I count that as evasion.

Statistical information is hugely useful at a population level but is useless at an individual level.

OP is not concerned with abstract risk at a population level but individual risk pertaining to her baby in the light of individual risk measures.

Cant what I’m saying is actually quite simple. I can’t believe you’re having this much difficulty with it.

I believe that far, far more children have been adversely affected by vaccines than officially noted. It took Jackie Fletcher nearly twenty years to get this concession made for Robert. Robert was very obviously disabled and the difference in him was stark.

There will be others who are not quite as strongly affected as Robert was but who are nonetheless affected. They will not show up on any official government or health records.

Like I say, it’s really not hard.