Does all organic make them more susceptible to illness

[Tillysmummy]

Hi ladies

Looking for some advice really, I was wondering what you thought of all organic food and whether or not it's linked to bad immunity ? My dd as you probably know from other threads has got tonsilitus now after having lots of other things the last two months. My nanny menioned something about thinking it was because I only gave her organic food. What do you think about this ? I think it is a very strange thought because how can pesticides and chemicals be good for baby ?

Also am just so fed up with her being poorly. Wonder when my baby will ever be well again. In her first 6 months she was very rarely ill but in the last 3 months she has had cold after cold and one thing after another. I am really fed up with it. I wonder if her constant nasal congestion is actually not a cold but an allergy to our cat or something else in the house because she doesn't seem to be really 'coldy' just blocked up and runny nose.

Anyone got any advice for me - everyone thinks it's odd that she's so often unwell the last couple of months and now it's starting to make me worry where before I thought she was just building up her immunity.

Hi, Tillysmummy. I'm far from an expert but I think your nanny is wrong. There seems to be a lot of prejudice against organic food. The only thing I would say is that because we underfund organic farming in this country we import most of our organic fruit and veg, so that by the time it reaches us it has lost a lot of its nutrients (although this applies to most imported f&v anyway.) It might be best to only buy seasonal, local organic produce, apart from things like oranges and bananas which we don't grow. It might also be worth dicussing giving your dd a vitamin supplement with your hv or g.p.

My dd had a snotty nose for ages and every book that I consulted said that allergic rhinitis is rare in the under-fives. We just kept on giving dd steamy baths, burning Olbas Oil etc. My hv said that these thing take so long to clear partly because their immune system is developing but also because their nasal passages are so small (I know that my dd is younger than yours but it probably still applies.)Things like vitamin c and onion and garlic help the immune system as does the herb echinacea but I don't know if it is safe for babies so consulting a medical herbalist might be a good idea. Also, I've been treated myself for sinus trouble with cranial osteopathy so that might help. And if your dd has had antibiotics then a probiotic might be a good idea too -Solgar make one for under-twos.

One final thing- I read recently that pre-school children who have lots of colds etc. have fewer once they reach school age than those that don't, so I think you are right - horrid as it seems now, your dd is building herself a strong immune system.

Hope this helps! (and I don't sound too bossy.)

Hi Tillysmummy, I'm no expert either, but I think you can only be doing your dd good by sticking to an organic diet. As you say, pesticides and chemicals can't possibly be any better for our children than residue free food.
My dd's also seemed to have endless coughs and colds, bugs and eczema etc until they were three or four. They started school last Sept, and haven't had a real cold since then (just the odd cough and sniffle), which tends to echo ionesmum's suggestion that the situation is likely to improve.
Have you considered seeing a homeopath? They would be able to offer advice on helping your dd to boost her immune system, and relieve the nasal congestion. I don't have any experience of medical herbalism, but have been v. impressed by the homeopath we consult.If you do decide to consult a complementary practitioner, of whatever background, do try and get a personal reccomendation.
Good luck!

Tillysmummy, I can't see how a lack of pesticides in your dd's diet can be a bad thing. FWIW my ds was rarely ill up until about 6 and a half months and then went through a stage of cold/cough/viral diarrhea until about 10 months. At 7 months my GP said it was because the natural immunity wears off at this time and then the babies get whatever's in circulation.
I'm sure there is research that links the stimulation of the immune system in infants by colds etc with a reduction in the occurance of auto-immune diseases (diabetes/arthritus I think) later in life.

Tillysmummy, my father is an expert in the field of nutrition and he thinks that organic food is an absolute waste of your money and possibly worse for you than non-organically grown foods (I won't get into all the details here)...however it certainly is not likely to cause bad immunity in a child. It is very normal for a child to start catching colds after 6 months and to have constantly runny noses. My son is 18 months and although he seems to have one cold after another and an ever running nose and cough, he still seems to be healthier than the other kids on the street. It's really just a product of your child getting out more and being exposed to lots of new germs and things. And as ionesmum said, the latest research indicates that lots of colds early means fewer later. Vitamin drops are always a good idea and might help a bit too.

SofiaAmes, would really be interested to hear more of your father's views on this subject.

Thanks ladies for the info. There is light at the end of the tunnel and I'm reassured that she is probably just building up her immunity.

SofiaAmes I would also be interested. We spend a fortune on organic food.

Me too, SofiaAmes, particularly in the light of some research reported on in Saturday's Telegraph that suggests organically grown fruit and veg is 3 times higher in salyclic acid (naturally occurring antioxidant thought to be beneficial in preventing cancers) than non-organic. The head of the research team was quoted as having being surprised at this finding, not expecting there to be any big difference between the two types of veg. It is the first big study to show a definite health benefit to eating organic.
Personally I am not bothered by any suggestion that organic produce is no better for you - I think the standards of crop and animal husbandry practised by organic farms, in the UK at any rate, are better for the animals in question and much better for wildlife and the local environment. I am happy to pay extra to support that attitude to our countryside. Some organic produce (milk, all meats, carrots, celery, tomatoes, cucumbers) also definitely tastes better to me.
But like Ionesmum, I also buy locally farmed stuff from Kent, whether organic or no, because it has only travelled a few miles up the road. I won't pay £2.50 for six elderly "organic" mangetout flown halfway across the world.
SofiaAmes, is your father based in the States or here? What's the general view of organic farming in the USA?

Marina, like you I buy organic because of the way it is produced and do not feel that the food is 'better' for me, there's more to it than that. I have heard that it is important to wash organic veg very thoroughly, but that's true of non-organic too. Sofiaames, even just in brief, why does your father think it's possibly bad for us?

Ok, here goes...1) organic fruits and vegetables are bred to be more naturally resistant to predators (insects etc.). What makes them more resistant are naturally occurring poisons (bad things exist in nature as well) which are also harmful to humans. The levels of some of these poisons can be as much as 10,000 times higher in organic fruits/veg. This greatly outweighs any amounts that might be left from pesticide residues in non-organic products. Also the pesticide residues can be washed/peeled away. 2) Some of the "approved" pesticides used in organic farming are actually worse for you and the environment (sulphates for example) than the newer more sophisticated ones used in non-organic farming. This can vary greatly from farmer to farmer and country to country.
However, having said that, the amounts of "poisons" that you are talking about in organic or non-organic fruits and veg are pretty minimal in the big picture of things. (cigarettes, motorcyles, guns...)
The real problem is that since organic fruits/veg are more expensive, people (the general population we are talking about) eat less of them. And one of the most important things for your health (for a variety of reasons) is to consume lots of fruits and veg (5 servings a day reduces your risk of getting cancer in half!).
Bear in mind that all of this is looking at organic fruit and veg from a nutritional point of view. It does not consider the "taste good" factor or the environmental etc. aspects of organic. And of course farm workers who deal directly with the pesticides in large amounts is a whole other issue.

Hope that all makes sense. I was a bit of a guinea pig growing up...as my father tested things in the lab we had phases of things that were banned from our house (red sweets, peanut butter, processed breakfast cereals, bbq's, pyjamas, hair dyes...). The last straw was nitrates.. my italian mother went on strike and said that she didn't care if she was going to die early, she was not going to give up eating good italian salami and sausages! And I used to trade my Brie sandwiches for good old peanut butter and jelly (an american thing) at school.

Marina, my father is a professor at Univ. of Calif. in Berkeley.

I have watched a TV programme about your father's findings, sofiaames.
Also, we started with an all organic diet with our little treasure, until he started playing up at mealtimes and refusing feeds for days and would then wolf down some other kid's Mcdonald's icecream. Or only eat non-organic poison from my plate. Unless you keep them well-trained to love the food you give them and find enough appetising stuff organically, by toddlerhood it is a losing battle. Or, it could just be me giving up. We now buy organic stuff if it looks particularly good, but fruit especially tastes so bad in this country (except the native stuff, apples and berries I think) that we buy fruit from Arab/continental stores where it is flown in from Cyprus and Greece(instead of Spain) and softer, riper and less refrigerated looking.

About the immunity thing. My DS had endless fevers, colds, diarrhoea, constipation from about the age of 8 months, but very healthy until then. He is just recovering from something now and we are battling it out to get a urine sample (3rd day now!!) The homeopath suggested 1/4 teaspoon of something called immunokids which is alcohol free. she recommended against echinacea. I don't know why. He has that and a vitamin supplement (to make me feel better, not him!) because his diet is so poor (probably my fault again). Hope this has been of interest.

My herbalist also recommended against echinacea whilst in the middle of an infection, she said that it is best given at the first sign or at the end of something, or not at all.

I have a similar view to Marina. I don't assume it is necessarily better for you and in many cases suspect it is a complete rip off. But I am keen to get the message across to producers and retailers that people DO care about the quality and provenance of their food and in the case of animal products, the conditions under which the animals are kept.

Thanks for that SofiaAmes, those sound extremely plausible considerations, especially the point about the toxicity of sulphates. I think that the difficult financial position of farmers in this country (a national disgrace) probably mitigates against a lot of them buying the latest, and no doubt more expensive, non-organic crop treatments.
I agree with Clucks' idea of shopping in places that are aimed at people who still consider how their food TASTES to be a main factor. Depending on where you live, though, those succulent mediterranean tomatoes that weren't grown in water can be hard to come by...

Grow your own!

I do agree about the taste of organic produce. All the veges and meats taste so much nicer. The bacon is the most yummy !

I prefer to buy organic meat. Partly because of BSE, which is so much more easily transmitted to babies and children than to adult, and partly because I think the way most animals are kept in intensive farming is a barbaric disgrace. I am not so determined about fruit & veg, though because the evidence that pesticides etc cause cancer is v weak. If they did, then the people who ate most fruit and veg would be getting the disease, wheras the reverse is true. I do think that food with minimal travelling time etc is likely to be fresher and thus better for you, though.

HOWEVER, I did see a report in the Guardian yesterday saying that organic veg contained higher levels of salycilic acid (as in aspirin) which is an anti-cancer agent.

Bells2, many famers who aren't Organic, rear their animals in the same conditions that the Organic ones do. The only difference is that the Organic Farmers don't use antibiotics without the consent of the Vet, as in if they have a cow with pnuemonia they can't just jag it with Micotil they ahve to get veterinary advice first and permission, and the withdrawal on anitbiotic in the Organic scheme is a lot longer than conventional methods. Conventional farmers control worms etc in their sheep by "dosing" with a wormer every 6-8 weeks during the summer and use a "Pre-tupping" drench before the ewes go to the tup in the back end. They also dose their cows for fluke worms as well and use pour ons to control flies and horse flies, sheep are also done
with a jag to prevent and cure Sheep Scab which is a horrendous mite that drives them potty with itching, I know our sheep had it after we bought some in that hadn't been done for Sheep Scab. Many say that Organic Farming is a better way of doing, but what they don't say is that stocking numbers have to be reduce drastically and that no artificial fertiliser like 20-10-10 or other can be used, they use things like Phosphate, Potash (the latter being sheep dung) We buy some organic veggies and fruit, usually when they are reduced in Safeways! We really don't have a good selection here as we are a bit out of the way in the South West of Scotland. Some farmers near us whop have been organic for some time now are returning to the conventional methods, because, 1 the Organic Aid money they were receiving has now stopped and 2, some wanted to increase their stocking densities and have had to go back to the "ordinary" way of farming. Organic is not a new thing, my grandfather farmed without the use of artificial manure and many antibiotics in the forties and fifties. Don't know if organic is any better for you, I think as long as you have a good well balanced diet then we should all be healthy enough.

Back again!!, Aloha, yes their are SOME cases where the animals are kept in the most serious conditions, I am glad to say we don't. But that is what is wrong, people see ONE farmer doing it badly and think that we are all the same. Ever seen an animal that is infested with worms, lice and hasn't been treated, I did once and it was when we were at out local market, so the local SSPCA chap was engulfed by a crowd of angry farmers, know what he was doing, sitting in his van listening to the bloody radio! We are not all like the select on or two who do it badly, only thing is we all get bad press, they never let you see the realy farmers, the ones who go out in all weathers, soaked to the skin to get a ewe and her lambs in from nearly 4 miles away from the steading, when one hasn't had a sook properly, or helping a cow when her calf isn't well, sitting and milking her when she is only used to her calf, not easy, but I wouldn't change it for the world. Those of us who do it right, don't want praise, we want a bit of understanding and grattitude from those who buy our produce, knowing that the majority of it was well looked after.

I'm not ranting, just very passionate about farming and the press that we get.

I do buy organic on occasion, but mostly try to buy whatever I can from our local Farmers' Markets (we have one every Saturday within a few miles of us), and a shop nearby which runs on the same local produce only principles. So we have (shock horror - don't tell the supermarkets!) what's actually in season and native to our area to a large extent. I know one or two others have mentioned buying local produce, so if anyone's interested, there's a list of locations here

Yes, farmers' markets are great. Even though it may not be all organic, at least it's seasonal, hasn't travelled too far and cuts out the supermarkets. AND they know what they're talking about, so you can ask for information about what you're buying.
I agree with Enid though - have just taken on an allotment (currently a jungle!) to grow some of our own stuff.

Tigger2 thanks for that. Despite living in the countryside I like most non farming people have absolutely no clue about the real issues in farming and your posts are very informative.
Keep them coming! We really do have a wide range of experts on mumsnet
ps I know the folks who make the Cairnsmore sheeps' cheese in your neck of the woods ( Sorbie, Wigtownshire)-I think they were very badly hit by the famd.

Tigger2 I am so excited to find a sheep expert in our midst. Lamb and goat (do you raise them too?) are my favorite meats. Why does lamb in england taste so much better than lamb in the usa. Is it the breeds or what they are fed?

And while I'm on the subject....I am convinced that the lamb I get from my local tesco's is much fresher than anything I've ever gotten from any of my local butchers (I live in nw london). Is this likely or is it my imagination?