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Original poster

Abortion rate highest ever - I'm sorry I just don't buy the reason suggested for this...

875 replies

CountessDracula · 08/02/2007 11:39

"But pregnancy advice groups said the figures probably reflected poor access to contraceptive services"

What utter tosh

You can buy condoms in many loos in clubs and pubs. In any chemist or 24hour shop.

You have access to family planning clinics and doctors with free contraception

You can buy the morning after pill over the counter ffs

Shouldn't people take a bit more responsibility and get themselves to these places and get some bloody contraception?

OP posts:
amidaiwish · 09/02/2007 19:04

cleft palate is hardly catastrophic
my friend's daughter had it, special bottles for feeding then an operation at 6 months. All totally repaired.
no big deal.
hardly grounds for abortion??

3andnomore · 09/02/2007 19:21

Aloha, but, indeed the medical reason bit can be construed in many ways, and yes, cleft lip CAN be part of otehr syndroms, but there are many just like me, where that is the only thing wrong ( I have a bilateral cleft lip and palate).
And, indeed in that case that was mentioned with a Baby being very late aborted with a cleft lip, I believe that was the only thing that actually was wrong.
Btw, I am pro choice,a nd no, I do not want to loose my right of choice, neither, I was merely clarifying that indeed late abortions don't always happen because there was something very bad wrong, and that medical reason can be broadened up as much as one likes.

Ladymuck · 09/02/2007 19:22

I guess one of the reasons that this debate does seem to end up at the extremes is that many of those who are strongly anti-abortion and believe that every foetus has a right to life, do so from a religious belief that such a life is sacred. Often the same people will have certain beliefs about sexuality including perhaps that sex only belongs within marriage. Everything appears very black and white, and there is cause (sexual promiscuity) and effect (unwanted baby). As a result there is no need to consider the effect of failed contraception, as failed contraception within marriage is less likely to be a significant factor in abortions.

3andnomore · 09/02/2007 19:22

Can I just point out that Aloha did not say that cleft lip/palate in itself was catastrophic, btu that sometimes a cleft lip and palate CAN be part of a syndrom and/or be the marker of other things being wrong that aren't as simply corrigable (sp?) as a cleft.

milquetoast · 09/02/2007 19:23

Dominiconnor was on to something a few hours ago when she suggested that aids education shifted contraception emphasis to condoms and away from other methods. Sexism probably plays a part too. bc pills and coils were invisible and private steps a woman could take to control matters. I bet a lot of girls aren't confident enough to take control in the heat of things and they may also not want to appear to be armed with condoms just in case they might meet somebody and want to have sex. Dip boys might think that's rather slutty.

paulaplumpbottom · 09/02/2007 19:41

Ladymuck, As I have already posted my views that a life should not be terminated to not stem from religious beliefs. I had plenty of pre-marital sex. I was also very responsible and used protection, for various reasons I am unable to use any contraceptive although I would have if I could. I also accepted that I could get pregnant and was prepared to take responsiblity should that happen. I am religious but these views are a separate issue.

Aloha · 09/02/2007 19:56

You use 'responsible' as a synonym for 'wouldn't have an abortion'. Other people may just as reasonably use being 'responsible' as the reason why they had an abortion.
I did say cleft palate is part of several catastrophic syndromes, and as the woman who had the termination did not come forward and her doctors did not talk about her case, we do not know at all if that a cleft was the only reason for the termination.
I was referring to suggestions on this thread that it is unfair that men have no say in abortion. The alternative is clearly forcing women to have babies they don't want.

paulaplumpbottom · 09/02/2007 19:58

Aloha Do you feel that a man who doesn't want a child should have to pay child support if a mother wants to keep a baby?

Aloha · 09/02/2007 20:03

Yes, of course. Why, do you think he should be able to force her to have an operation that is against her will so he can save money?

FioFio · 09/02/2007 20:07

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

FioFio · 09/02/2007 20:08

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paulaplumpbottom · 09/02/2007 20:10

No my point is that you have a bit of a double standard. You feel that if a woman doesn't want a baby that she shouldn't have to carry it even if the father wants the baby. You would say however that a father who doesn't want a baby should still have to be responsible for it if the mother wants to keep it even if he doesn't want it. Why should women get to choose to wash their hands of a child but a man can't. Someone could use your argument that its awful to not be wanted by a parent.

I feel that men should be responsible financially for children by the way, but I think it must be awful for a man who wants a child to have it terminated.I think fathers have rights to.

paulaplumpbottom · 09/02/2007 20:12

It is sad Fio especially when people who have downs are such a wonderful addition to society.

lulumama · 09/02/2007 20:15

they do paula...but the father is not going to carry the baby, give birth and then breastfeed...is he going to take sole custody and give up his job for a few months if not years to be with the child.....? if a father would take sole custody in such circs, how can he possibly expect the woman go through pregnancy , labour and birth? it is the same as the arguement saying that women with unwanted pregnancies should have the baby adopted

paulaplumpbottom · 09/02/2007 20:17

I see so you are all for choice but it should only apply to women. Men have no choices. So much for equality.

3andnomore · 09/02/2007 20:18

Fio, I do agree with that...but like I emntioned earlier on, it could become dangerous ground if that could be overruled by HP's....because then those HP's could claim that women who want a HB against their advice (not necessary because it isn't safe) putting their child at risk, and therefore that coice could be overruled...not sure if that makes sense, and I know this is not related to abortion or the topic, but that is the next step....personally I don't think the law needs to change, it is the attitude, people have to take responsibility for contraception (male and female) and then it's a whole different ballgame, because, it is different if it happened anyway, or because one is careless or did not have the option to say NO to sex (rape)
Thing is, if someone really doesn't want a disabled child, is it right to "force" those parents to have it anyway, if at the end of the day anyone can have a abortion anyway....
Btw...I think it's terrible that those very late abortions happen...it's more a theoretical question.
I mean, obviously if one is completely pro choice, then it remains the choice of the individual....
That is why I find it really difficult to say I am completely pro choice or pro life...I am somewhere in teh middleground, wishing there was more regulation, and maybe more common sense ( this is more generally said, because, of course lots of people that have abortions have them and it is for the best at that time, etc.....so, they are not lacking common sense of course)...however, I would also be worried that a change of law could snowball rather negatively.

lulumama · 09/02/2007 20:18

there can not be an equality where only one gender is capable of carrying a baby.....IMO

men and women are absolutely not the same in this respect

paulaplumpbottom · 09/02/2007 20:20

Do you think Lulumama that a man who doesn't want his baby should have to support it?

lulumama · 09/02/2007 20:25

i think paying maintainance is not comparable to carrying a baby for 9 months and giving birth and then having parental responsibility for ever

i think men and women should take responsibility, if a woman deliberately deceives a man, that she is on the pill or has a coil , but does;t, and gets pregnant, i think it is unfair for the man to support the child, but i think when two people are in a relationship and he changes his mind about having children when she is pregnant, it is tough and he should support the baby.

look, none of this is black and white is it?

and you and i are not going to agree, as we have debated this before

i think it is unfair to use abortion as contraception

i think it is right there is access to legal safe abortion

i think that the upper legal limit should be lower than it is

but most of all, i think i am very glad that i have not been in the position of having to think about termination

Aloha · 09/02/2007 20:27

So what rights would you give them then Paula? That a rapist say, could insist his victim bears his child? Or that an abusive bully forces his ex wife to have a baby she doesn't want? And what if she dies in childbirth or suffers post birth psychosis because of it?
Or would you think it is OK for men not to contribute to their own children?
Come on, it has to be one or the other if you want 'equal rights'
The point is men and women cannot have 'equal rights' over this matter because men don't get pregnant.

Aloha · 09/02/2007 20:28

The money is for the CHILD not the woman! Surely that is one of those 'consequences' you are so very keen on?

paulaplumpbottom · 09/02/2007 20:29

But accidents happen all the time with contracetion as you have said. What if its is just an accident and she wants it and he doesn't should he have to "carry that burden for life"?

paulaplumpbottom · 09/02/2007 20:31

All I'm saying is that surely they should get to choose to. "That a rapist say, could insist his victim bears his child? Or that an abusive bully forces his ex wife to have a baby she doesn't want? And what if she dies in childbirth or suffers post birth psychosis because of it?" these jerks are in the minority.
Why do you feel its ok for a woman to get to choose to terminate but not a man?

lulumama · 09/02/2007 20:32

yes, he should support the child , IMO...

this is going to keep going round and round and round and we are not going to agree,

lulumama · 09/02/2007 20:33

BECAUSE SHE IS THE ONE WHO HAS TO BE PREGNANT , NOT THE MAN !