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If depression really is just a chemical imbalance, why does counselling work as well as anti-d's in some cases?

168 replies

Enid · 30/11/2006 11:04

I can never understand that one.

OP posts:
Heathcliffscathy · 30/11/2006 18:49

gosh.

the causes of serious mental illness are most often pre-verbal.

talking about 'happy childhoods' implies that if someone is depressed they had malevolent parents and were neglected in very obvious ways. Although this is sometimes the case, most often these things are subtle and not about judging the ability of the primary caregiver (given the cross-generational nature of these things, that caregiver is limited in terms of her ability to care by her own early childhood).

One example (among several thousand!). A mother may for whatever reason find herself unable to do the mirroring and gazing that babies need in order to acheive the beginnings of a sense of self. The mother might be depressed herself for example.

That baby may well grow up to have serious mental health problems, but not remember anything but a happy childhood, and may indeed have had it, it doesn't not mean that the root causes of that depression are factors to do with the quality of the primary caregiving relationship.

It is very rare that someone comes for therapy knowing exactly why they are feeling the way they are. Even when they do, there is usually more to it, and reveals itself in the course of the work.

VeniVidiVickiQV · 30/11/2006 19:15

Yes, but, I also happen to think that if you look long and hard enough at something you will always manage to find a "link" whether its pertinent or not is a different matter.

I think what you are doing is fantastic sophable, and congratulations on your qualification too.

I just dont think what you do applies to 100% of patients with depression.

i mean - alcohol is a depressant - how is this so? There are so called "mind altering" drugs - how do these work? Why can the same not be said about other physiological triggers?

amynnixmum · 30/11/2006 19:20

Addictive drugs all affect a part of the brain popularly known as the reward pathway. it mainly uses dopamine but of course this isn't the whole story. It is designed to work for natural rewards such as food, water and sex - addicitve drugs overstimulate this pathway and that is at least part of the reason that they are addicitive. But still not all people become truly addicited to drugs or alcohol (even if they end up with a physical dependency) and this seems to be mostly down to genetics.

VeniVidiVickiQV · 30/11/2006 19:23

But how does it work as a depressant?

amynnixmum · 30/11/2006 19:26

Sorry VVVQV - I am poorly and have not had enough food today given that I am attempting to cure my flu with wine so ironically i can't remember exactly how it works right now. If you are really interested I will look it up tomorrow

MrsOhHu · 30/11/2006 19:34

I think that life is tough. We all stagger through somehow. Some of us take drugs or alcohol or excercise or religion or study or make loads of money to ease the pain or alleviate the boredom. Who said life was going to be easy? Most people don't go out of their way to hurt others, but they don't know what the're doing and don't have the insight to do anything about it. Anyway, although therapy may help on different levels, we also have lives to get on with. Why are some people unhelpable?

FioFio · 30/11/2006 19:41

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Dior · 30/11/2006 19:42

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FioFio · 30/11/2006 19:45

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Dior · 01/12/2006 13:23

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dara · 01/12/2006 13:45

Sophable, you do seem to be suggesting that anyone who disagrees with you - even eminent scientists as quoted in Zippi's links (have you read them?) is deluded or even mentally ill themselves. EG "people cling the diagnosis of clinical depression because there is a stigma attached to mental illness and because it feels safer to be able to say: look i've got an illness, i'm curing it with pills."
AND "the reason people are so desperate to find a gene and corresponding magic bullet for is because of the trouble they have digesting that there are painful, difficult to face reasons why they find themselves in deep depression."
That's rather a good way of avoiding discussion, isn't it?

Zippi's links make a very convincing scientific case for a genetic predisposition for depression & other mental illnesses in certain individuals.

dara · 01/12/2006 13:48

Andrew McCullock, chief executive of the mental health foundation, said: "Drinking alcohol is a very common and accepted way of coping - our culture allows us to use alcohol for 'medicinal purposes' or 'dutch courage' from an early age. But using alcohol to deal with anxiety and depression doesn't work as alcohol can weaken the neurotransmitters that the brain needs to reduce anxiety and depressive thoughts. This is why lots of people feel low when they have a hangover."

MrsOhHu · 01/12/2006 16:11

It sounds as though if you have perfect parents and your birth was straightforward and everything went right, then you wouldn't get depressed. I think that there is a genetic element in severe depression. I think there is something that just kicks some people over the edge when others wouldn't tumble. I don't know if doctors still use the terms 'reactive' and 'endogenous'. I think they may be rather out of date. Anyway, in the New Scientist it said that depression would be the biggest killer amongst the wealthy in years to come. The poorest people will die of AIDS. Cheerful stuff!

zippitippitoes · 01/12/2006 16:21

sophable

when you say "the causes of serious mental illness are most often pre-verbal"

how much is most often?

and how has it been proven it seems like a hard thing to support scientifically too

So if you have a client who is sceptical about this how would you approach their counselling?

It seems as though I might say my muma dn dad were lovely, no problems good family realtionships but you would then feel that I had pre verbal damage which of course I wouldn't be able to prove to the contrary ?

EdieMcredie · 01/12/2006 18:25

Haven't got time to read all this. Im a mental health nurse and depression more or less falls into two catogories: clinical and reactive. Clinical depression is when there is most likely a chemical cause. However reactive depression is usually triggered by a traumatic life event.

AD'S can be effective for both but must only be used when someone displays symptoms of depression ie poor sleep, poor diet, poor concentration, poor motivation, lack of interest etc. Counselling is beneficial but will not treat clinical depression without AD's. It may treat depression in reactive type but AD's will also be required if there are above symptoms present.

gingerjean · 01/12/2006 20:34

I haven't read all of this post but can I ask Edie mcredie a question?

I think my depression is reactive BUT it was left untreated after DS birth nearly 4 years ago (had traumatic birth which affected me). I didn't seek medical treatment and just got on with it. I now think I have a clinical depression, although I am not sure.

Is it possible to have reactive depression then clinical depression?

Thanks Edie Mcredie

expatinscotland · 01/12/2006 20:47

ADs changed my life! Saved my life, too.

I have PND and it's definitely chemical.

At times I've found my insomnia is worse than others, but a lot of that is b/c my job sucks - yes, I am looking for another.

EdieMcredie · 02/12/2006 21:42

Yes Gingerjean this is entirely possible. Poor you, it's absolutely ghastly. How are you suffering at the moment? Well done for talking about it

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