Please explain, succinctly, the anti vac argument

[WorkingBling]

With all the current news re vaccines and measles I realised that while I am very comfortable and believe strongly that vaccines are the most appropriate defense, I don't actually understand the anti vac argument. I remember the Wakefield thing but that has been debunked. So why do people still resist? What is the thinking?

Someone told
Me that he doesn't "agree with vaccines" in much the same tone as he mightn't say he doesn't agree with the death penalty but I was too nervous to push him further without understanding the issues better.

LaVolcan, totally agree with you about polio and diphtheria. I don't feel that my children are any more likely to catch these diseases than me and I'm not having a vaccine.

In fact, for this reason, and the ones you list above I'm not bothering with the boosters when they are teenagers and didn't bother with the pre school boosters either, although I do think that by the time they get to teenagers they perhaps need to have some input themselves, but anyway, they'll soon be able to make a decision for themselves as adults.

The tetanus vaccine comes with polio and diphtheria and although I probably would consent to that, my desire to avoid the diphtheria and polio is greater then my desire to vaccinate against tetanus.

Presumably the gov't would say that the reason we have no diphtheria cases is due to vaccination. I have no idea what percentage of the population has had the jab, though. I would have had a diphtheria jab but doubt my parents have.

(No axe to grind here as have one unvaccinated child).

I would imagine that most people under 70 would have had or been offered a diphtheria jab - it's been part of the vaccination schedule for a long long time.

My sister and many of her friends were very anti-vac until my best friend's daughter died (age 7) of encephalitis caused by measles.

Local vaccination rates went up dramatically after that happened - despite them having "deep moral reasons where vaccination just was not an option" for them.

Are you in the UK, somewhereIbelong?

These www.gov.uk/government/publications/measles-deaths-by-age-group-from-1980-to-2013-ons-data/measles-deaths-by-age-group-from-1980-to-2013-ons-data government stats don't seem to show any measles deaths in that age group unless it was very recently or a long time ago.

I'm sorry for your loss but imo neither side should be making decisions based on one case they know. I can see why your friends changed their mind after this case but I can also see why someone who knows a vaccine damaged child (I know this is rarer) is then scared of vaccinating theirs. Whether their decision is correct or not, it's a foolish reason for making a choice.

there is free travel between countries in which polio still circulates or recently circulated and the UK - with the IPV in the 5 in 1, there is no reason to forego the polio vaccination at this point www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-30822967

Yes, polio is still circulating in some countries, but quite honestly, the vast majority of babies in this country are not going to be taken on a plane to India or Pakistan within a few months of being born. I have no problem with it being offered to those who are likely to need it.

I did find it a bit farcical when I went for travel injection advice when I went to India to be told that I didn't need polio vaccination because I had had the full course as a child. No mention of testing me now to see if the immunity had worn off in the subsequent years.

I just get the dTaP/IPV every 10 years and don't have to worry.

As there are knowledgeable, rational people on this thread, would you please give me your opinion?

DS2 is nearly 3. He has had all his vaccinations to date, the last one was the MMR when he just turned one year old, and the nasal flu vac last autumn. In the last year or so, it's become apparent that he has SN, name a severe speech and language disorder and I also believe that he has autism or a social communication disorder. We are on all of the writing lists for assessment and diagnosis.

My question is: what should I do about further vaccinations? Do I agree yo the MMR booster that is recommended for pre schoolers?

I just get the dTaP/IPV every 10 years and don't have to worry.

You obviously have had different advice dished out by your surgery. I was told that they no longer give booster tetanus injections every ten years, so I don't need any more.

Hia- personally speaking as someone who is critical of various vaccination policies I wouldn't not have the mmr booster for this reason.

There are reasons to consider possibly refusing this booster but a child having a speech and language disorder isn't one of them.

I was in Scotland Jackieharris, it was in 1992.

Jackie, thanks for your input. It was more the possible autism (I am certain of it, but waiting for a professional to assess) that I was concerned about.

Somewhere- well that makes sense then, since the Scottish stats are collected separately.

Hia- the 'autism link' came from one now discredited study. It really isn't a good reason to avoid the mmr.

For anyone who's interested in the more nuanced debate about the UK's particular vaccination programme I found this vaccine-schedule.ecdc.europa.eu/Pages/Scheduler.aspx website which compares the vaccination schedules of different European countries.

You can be pro vaccine but still disagree with our country's schedulee.

Most people who have not researched the downsides of vaccines, assume that those who choose to delay, partially vaccinate or not vaccinate at all do so on the basis of 'the one now discredited study'.

In fact, the is much more to available information that that one study. Unfortunately, here on Mumsnet any hint at other sources of information are quickly pounced upon and ridiculed. However, risking the wrath of the vehemently pro vaccine... for those wishing to research further, my first ports of call would be..

Dr Jane Donegan
Dr Richard Halvorsen
Dr Campbell McBride
Trevor Gunn
The Informed Parent

.. at which point anotherday people jump in and say that Dr Halvorsen is biased because he is making money from his vaccine clinics.....
I don't know the others, but I suspect the same is applied to them.

(And it's back to the weary old debate: Question- "should I have whooping cough/tetanus/polio vaccines?" Response -" MMR doesn't cause autism, MMR doesn't cause autism, la la la, I'm not listening."

Shall I jump right back in with the fact that the WHO agree that nutrition would save more lives than vaccines but vaccines receive 400 times more finding than nutrition because the money to be made from vaccines is much greater than the money to be made from clean water and adequate nutrition. But we are not allowed to suggest that the pharmaceutical companies make any money from vaccines and use their vast PR budgets to influence opinion because that would make me a conspiracy theorist and I would be lumped I with the holocaust deniers.

.. and that vitamin A assists in moderating the effects of measles. But let's face it, the average GP doesn't know much about nutrition. [LaVolcan goes to stand in the conspiracy theorist corner.]

DS already has autism, Jackie. I was interested in views as to whether a child with autism or any other SN, should, in your views, have additional vaccinations.

Hiawatha - autism is many things - it's not one condition with one cause.

If you think in your particular case (if it does turn out to be autism) that there may be an immune system issue (seems relevant for a subgroup of autism) or a mitochondrial dysfunction (another subgroup) then it might be worth exercising caution.

Check out judy can see water (an immunologist at University of California - she's more caged these days than she was in this article - but it might be worth trying to contact her content.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1721109,00.html ). Or maybe have a chat to Richard Kelley at Kennedy Krieger - I found him very helpful & happy to share opinions on mitochondrial disorders - he also put me in contact with a paediatric neurologist here. Together this meant we could get an NHS referral.

Thanks Saintly. I will look into it. We are at the very initial stages at the moment, so not yet had a proper assessment.

If you come across some interesting research and have some questions it can be worth emailing the researchers directly. Some are happy to advise (others not so much).

If your child has health or gut issues as well Treating Autism can be a helpful support group. We never went heavily down the biomed route, but a gluten free diet helped for a long time (even NHS paeds recommend that these days - they laughed at us at the time).

Good luck!

oh PMSL at judy can see water. Good old autocorrect. Try Judy van der Water!

This is all so good to know. Saintly, thanks. DS eats an incredibly narrow diet, it's really poor, but he doesn't seem yo have gut trouble. I don't know how he would respond to more variation, even if he were willing to put other goods in his mouth.

But I will certainly follow up research when we are further down the line.

ds1 was the same. After his regression he ate no meat, no fish, no fruit, no veg! School worked with him for a year from the age of 5 or 6 (can tell you how sometime if you want), and he eats really well now. Loves roast dinners, stews, fish, and we have to hide apples and oranges or he'll eat the whole lot.