Back to Back Trouble. The Back Pain Support Thread.

[Matildathecat]

This is a support thread for people with back pain (that does not even cover the description of hell that back pain causes). It's for all types of back pain, for long term posters with chronic pain (including those on the upwards journey to recover), short term advice through tough acute episodes and all the in betweens.

We moan, winge, share successes, guide each other and hand hold through the maize of a million medical routes and options, treatments, investigations. We internet shop as a form of pain relief, drink wine, take strong painkillers, eat cake and we go through lots of heat packs!

We don't always have the answers but we do have a lot to say about it all

Here are the links to our previous threads:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/general_health/1871592-The-Back-Story
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/general_health/1992406-The-Back-Story-Continues
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/general_health/2023274-More-Terrible-Back-Stories
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/general_health/2049637-Back-Again-Back-Pain-Support-Thread?msgid=47419209#47419209

And some other useful links and info:

www.patient.co.uk/health/cauda-equina-syndrome-leaflet

We have done the hard work for you and learned about effective drug combining. Using NSAIDs, a stomach protector, paracetamol with or without codeine (it enhances the codeine), nerve pain meds such as gabapentin and/or amytriptiline can all be more effective than simply taking huge doses of opiates. Of course most people won't need all of this but for severe prolonged back injuries this is helpful to know.

Heat, gentle exercise, TENs, medication patches, diazepam and accupuncture, we've tried them all.

So if you are suffering come and join us, were a social lot.

I hope turkey goes well Matilda and journey isn't too bad.

Ooh have a lovely time in Turkey Matilda. What sort of holiday are you planning?

Pavlov, goodness what a lot going on. Hope you feel better soon. It sounds to me that you are not just googling symptoms and self diagnosing but rather becoming something of an expert patient. I hope you can start to get somewhere.

I have had a good week. A week out of my normal routine has done me the power of good. Apart from the usual shakeup there have been lots of other benefits,,,.

...Because I have been able to avoid driving I have been able to have decent doses of lyrica.
....Being away from my children means I haven't lifted my son
....I have asked to stand in meetings.
...as I am not at home I am not picking up 3 million loom bands or frigging Lego off the floor

But after some serious amounts of work this week today I have the day off :) so it's Melbourne markets and lovely coffee before flying back to the arse end of nowhere tomorrow

How does the lyrica affect your driving, Milly? I'm not driving anyway - hurts my leg too much to be in that position - but I don't think the drugs would be a problem (unless I'd taken diazepam). Neither pregabalin nor codeine make me tired or out of it now.

What dose of lyrica are you on? Do you get dry mouth symptoms? That's my biggest problem.

Hope you have a lovely holiday, matilda. At least all the travelling is broken up a bit so you won't be in one position for ages. I'm sure the sunshine & heat will help when you get there.

Milly at the risk of teaching your granny to suck eggs, have you tried Little creatures in Melbourne? We loved it. My eldest ds did a year there and we visited. That was pre back? So glad you are feeling a bit better and hope you can incorporate these factors at home.

loon, thanks, I have quite a busy week to get through first but am planning to address the journey via medication. . I can't honestly think of any other option. Hopefully it will pass in a blur and I will just arrive. Hope that isn't too idealistic.

Great news Pavlov. Hope the referral comes soon, well soonish being realistic :(

Have a lovely holiday Matilda - thermacare patch on your back helps and I used mindfulness meditation plus tonnes of drugs.

Yay denial, fingers crossed for the funding and it working.

Just posting a link in case it hasn't come up in searches so far as it has info on inflammatory and immune responses.

www.chirogeek.com/Herniation/Herniation%20Page/disc-herniation-page.html

Love little creatures...met a friend there last time I was here

When I first started taking pregalbin it made me high as a kite... Starting to settle down now. No dry mouth though ...at the moment I am on 75 x 2 or 75 x 3 if I need to sit down in the evening can go up to 150 x 2 but as am also taking some stuff for depression (an unwanted side effect from lack of crossfit/running/swimming) I don't want to go too heavy

Has the pregablin affected your memory, milly? That's my worst side effect from gabapentin. Because it helps pain wise I'm afraid I wouldn't be allowed to try the far more expensive option but if it is really better I'd have a try.

Hard to tell....i think stress affects it as does lack of sleep, short term memory perhaps a touch....

Hiya all,
have been reading up catch up, been busy with birthday party for dd(2) and appts and going to the gym a bit.
Hope you are all having a good night for sleep and no pains in the night.
Like you Matilda I am somewhat interested in pregablin because I also get foggy-head with the gabapentin but it does work a bit on the pain so I expect they wouldnt want me to try it (££!)
Have had MRI follow up. There is only mild "bulge" at L4/L5 and L5/S1 with minor disc degeneration and some facet joint degeneration there too. He suggested management as I am with physio, drugs and pilates but said I might be offered spinal injections and has referred me to the low back pain dept who would do that. no idea how long that'll take. I am now discharged RE the hip as they think it should be fine with rehab- I forgot to mention that the hip pains return if I stop my meds but I guess it's early days after op
I have joined gym and trying to go 2/3 times for static bike,doing some upper bod machines for balance,either yoga or pilates once a week,plus physio exercises.
have thought of a few things since the appt but maybe I can ask the back pain dept. feel somewhat set adrift tbh. could be worse. I asked if being a chef made it happen nd he was sure it didnt-said it was coz we all walk upright, some more susceptible than others- but have since read some papers that contradict this advice completely.
dh bought me a new chair/stool which is insanely comfy,yay!

maizie just quickly popping on to respond to the MRI results. if drives me mad the hcp minimise the impact that 'mild' degeneration can cause. I was reading an article today which was saying that in actual fact the earlier stages of degeneration can be more painful than later stages. and i have also been told time again by hcp that mild disc prolapses can be painful and significant ones might not be which also contradicts the other stuff. I think it's irrelevant what level of degeneration there is really, in that, if there is degeneration, if there is a disc bulge and you have symptoms that correlate, it's likely to be that causing the pain and they should not minimise it by making out it's no big deal, because they don't have to live with the pain of it. And, also, MRIs are done lying flat, when the disc is likely to bulge the least, and the nerves are lying away from the disc, so what the MRI does not show, is what the 'mild' bulge is doing as you move, and twist. My GP says that it can bulge out further and back again with movement and the MRI does not show that.

Apparantly you can have standing MRIs, but they cost far more than our hcp will spend, even though it appears they are the best ones to show what happens to the discs when they are loaded.

He was rather understanding of the pain element - hence the injections suggestion, he explained the thing about mri only showing "at it's best" and that was why I'm getting the odd travelling pain, as the facet joints have degeneration in some bits not others. I was prob doing the minimising myself realy because so mny on here have very serious conditions- he was pretty thorough and talked it through for about 45 mins/hour but there will always be bits that pop into your mind afterwards. I was just reading aswell the thing about slight degeneration can cause alot of pain and vice versa, how odd? getting alot of groggy head lately- so I missed my usual pill before thappt to be clear and as I left I could feel pains starting up in my hip agaon every time putting weight on left foot- hope I don't need to be on these pain-killers forever, find them a bit worrying at the mo. hope you have all woken up to a low pain day today

maizie you don't need to minimise on here. We all know that even 'simple mechanical' back pain can be life changing and debilitating, and in facet joint pain as well as nerve pain is not a good combination. But, I also minimise, and often feel my situation is not so bad as to warrant the amount of moaning I do! Good he was thorough and explained things properly.

Been out to a lovely little cafe, in a place called maker, friend of DHs who is a chef just opened it, fabulous food tucked away, if you ever go to Plymouth Cornwall, make a trip there, he is an amazing chef and uses local produce. Am still stuffed now and it's been almost 5 hours since I had breakfast there!

Managed a walk, needed the crutch, but back is not too bad considering how shit I felt earlier in the week. Gonna feel it in a bit though!

Hope everyone is having a reasonable weekend.

that place sounds lovely pavlov, there are lots of culinary gems likthat dotted over the coast.I went to cornwall for holidays as a teenager and remember amazing foods- excellent ice-cream there and in somerset and dorset, love all those areas and we would dream of having a house somwehere =like that.
poor dh's back is bad as well today so we are a couple of walking wounded!
is it called "maker" unusual name for a cafe. bet they had amazing cake!
I have 1 week left of wheat-ness and then have the blood test and after that cutting out wheat and maybe some other things after.
tell me about the anti-inflammatory diet you follow pavlov
hope you are all having peaceful and relaxing weekend guys.
We are watching kiddie movies, and earlier did some paralell play with ds and a crafty glitter and paper sticking session with dd so feeling quite happy and chille(with the help of the codeine as well i'm afraid but hey ho)

OMG, I completely overdid it yesterday and am suffering big time. My back was so stiff when I woke up I could hardly get out of bed. The reason? I did a fair bit of driving yesterday, just chores etc. then we went to a party, a yearly event by the river with a band and bbq. Only stayed a couple of hours but jeez, am I paying today. Back is actually less stiff but leg and butt are singing discordently.

maizie, in today's paper there was an article about a model called Daisy Lowe who has food intolerances and has just published a cook book full of cakes etc called Sweetness and Light. Hope your DH gets better soon. I'm always telling DH he can't get ill or injured.

I'm out again tonight to a friends house for supper. They've just built this house from scratch and it's achingly lovely so will be in pain and sick with envy. Hey ho. Glad the weather forecast is improving it's been vile today. We are very close to wimbledon so we get quite accurate forecasts for two weeks a year!

Hello. Squeeze up - can you make room for one more on this busy thread?!

I have read the thread and picked out lots of tips, but am not sure which are best for me?

I have what I would call moderate pain in my lower back/pelvic area, left hand side only. It feels like a 'raw' pain, not a stab or throb. No 'c.equina' symptoms, occasional slight tingle in left foot but not consistent. Pain is quite localised.

Driving is really, really painful. I am most comfortable standing up or
lying flat.

Had x4 chiropractic treatments, she suggested it's sacro-iliac pain.

I'm taking paracetamol and ibuprofen at 2-hourly intervals which is helping slightly but not sure what to do for the best. GP? Rest? Heat/ice? More/different manipulation?

Can someone help? Thanks. I'm beginning to get a bit desperate.

Hi Light, sorry you need to join us. How long has this been going on? A few weeks? The thing that resonates with me is the intense dislike of sitting. My primary problem was a disc prolapse at L4/5, the most common injury of it's type, I believe. I would definitely see your GP. It at least logs your problem and you may benefit from stronger analgesia. For me it's heat every time. Lots of lying down with knees bent upwards.

Try this a couple of times a day, it really does help to realign the spine.
www.imogenragone.com/self-help/constructive-rest/

The suggestion of sacro iliac dysfunction could be right but bear in mind that lots of nerves run through the joint so it's often tender. Keep moving gently but don't overdo it and avoid sitting etc.

This was recently posted and is very informative.
www.chirogeek.com/Herniation/Herniation%20Page/disc-herniation-page.html

Oh, and I'd be avoiding manipulation. It sounds painful and doesn't seem to have helped.
Keep posting.

LS - sorry you have to come on board. If the pain relief isn't enough ask for something stronger. Codeine or rather cocodamol for the added paracetamol is preferred. If you tolerate the ibuprofen you can ask for a stronger NSAID like naproxen, plus something to protect your stomach.

I'm a bit wary of chiropractors and osteopaths, although I have had some good experiences with osteopaths who are considered a good option for lower back pain only. I would ask for a referral to a physio or go private if possible, I had bad experiences with the NHS until yesterday when I had an assessment lasting an hour and a half! So it's a bit of potluck.

There are tests for sacroiliac joint disfunction so get these tests. There is also a very simple test for lumbar disc herniation you can do alone, although best done by professional as it's supposed to be passive. It's the single leg raise test, just google for details but simply it is lying on your back with your knees up and feet flat. You then straighten one leg and try to raise it. Try with the other leg and if there if a significant difference it may be a sign of a disc issue - I spent two years convinced I had a SIJ issue and it was a disc. Ask the physio about this and the SIJD tests. Although they aren't absolutely accurate so other tests should be done.

Another option is to ask for an MRI, depending on how long this has been going on the leg symptoms are a sign this needs investigating. Or go private if they say no, I wish I had done this. I think a private physio can refer for a private MRI if your GP isn't willing.

I don't think it's worth just treating the symptoms without investigating the reasons, as was my experience. And the back pain can be caused by central herniations, even they aren't big enough for CES. Plus the leg pain is less prominent than herniations to the side which push much more onto the nerve root.

So book an appointment with your GP on Monday, get better pain relief, get a physio referral and ask how you'd qualify for an MRI or other investigation. Unfortunately we have to suffer for quite a while before they start taking it seriously.

Yes like Matilda it really sounds like my symptoms, except no tingling, just light pain into the foot. My disc is L4/5.

Thank you so much for posting such long and helpful replies. It's been about 6 weeks now, but getting steadily more painful. I don't have much opportunity to rest and wonder if I am making things worse.

I am ok with the ibuprofen, also have some co-codamol in the house. I understand what you are saying about manipulation and I am not sure it has helped.

I'm frightened as well. I know several people who have had disc herniations and I am worried that I am in for the long haul. I also don't know if the GP will take me seriously - or even if it is a serious problem I have.

LS sorry you feel crap, but you will get lots of support here. I echo what is already said about avoiding manipulation until you know what's going on. I was told by a hcp that if I had chiro/manipulation with a disc bulge it could burst it completely, although, if you have a good chiro they would be aware of that and avoid the very specific area of concern. Problem is, without a diagnosis, the chiro won't be absolutely sure what area to avoid, although again, a chiro worth their weight in gold should be able to pretty much diagnose. Unfortunately, as you will see, the standard of quality, experience and knowledge in many health care professionals varies.

Pain relief. As said by the others, I also advocate
heat - ideally a wheat bag, gel pack, hot water bottle is fine but be careful not to burn yourself (use over clothes not under) patches can be bought if you still need to move around, to stick on. In this heat, you might boil yourself alive though, so ice is good for some people. Ice/heat combinations can work really well in reducing inflammation but is time consuming unless you have someone running around for you unlikely Showers are good if you can get in and out.
pain relief = paracetamol + opiate + NSAID. so, for example paracetamol + codeine + ibuprofen can be taken together safely at maximum doses (normally paracetamol and codeine together 4 x daily, plus NSAID x 3 daily) You can get co-codemol over the counter, but if it's not cutting it, go to your GP for a higher dose of opiate and NSAID (of course, if you are able to take those drugs). If your nerve pain is bearable and intermittent, I would suggest leaving that in terms of pain relief as the side effects are quite strong for nerve blocking pain killers.

Exercise if you can, walk gently, stretch yourself, the semi-supine position shown in one of matildas links is really nice for stretching out the back, as is the child pose.

And hassle your GP. NICE guidelines suggest 6 weeks as the marker for improvement or further investigation, but be prepared to fight your GP a little, they do like a bit of sending you packing with painkillers, which is fine for a short while, but does not diagnose the cause.

And, the biggest, most important thing we have here is Internet Shoppig. Eases most pain, at least until the bank statement comes in

and, your GP might not take you seriously to start with, but you have to battle through that, and keep going back and explaining just how much this is affecting you until you get some further treatment/investigations.

Discs can and often do heal themselves. In time. But, unfortunately most people who have made full recovery don't post here But, time is the key, and self awareness, and hard work. It won't go away on it's own, so core strength is important (pain allowing), as is being ok with taking the painkillers to get you through the tough part, which I struggled with for probably too long before giving in and taking the goddam medicine

You don't have to be in for the long haul. Most people recover, six weeks seems to be a sign it may not be when researching, but they tend to be in the US where surgeons like to operate to get more money. Six months is probably more likely here but two or three months is about right.

I had a herniation at 16 and recovered really well with just physio. I had no scans so I don't know if it is the same disc and how bad it was but I didn't get any symptoms again until I was about, 23 and it was very mild until pregnancy number two at 29.

Rest is important so try to get as much as possible, wheat bag or heat patch at least once a day. If you are really worried and have the money I would consider paying for an MRI if you aren't better in another a month or so, but give physio a try first. I seem to recall it working very quickly, it's only 10% of disc herniations that require surgery. I'm awaiting surgery, hopefully this summer, so if it does turn out you are in the 10% I hope to have a good news story. However, waiting so long has caused muscular problems I need to address. That's another reason not to wait to long, keep your core strong as it will weaken in response to the pain.

anti inflammatory diet and food triangle maizie I get ideas from this. Unfortunately, I am highly carb based in my food intake, I need it to keep going, I can eat a huge huge amount and not put weight on, but it also drains me energy wise, and so i am trying to cut down on my bread and wheat intake but it's almost impossible. But, I try to add turmeric to my diet 3 times a week in rice, or to pasta water (can't taste it in the pasta). I have not been brave enough to eat it as a paste/drink , I drink lots of water, and eat as much fish as I can, lots of avocados, but struggle with the rest of that triangle, other than the red wine! Even then I mostly drink a couple of glasses a week these days max.

Ideally, I would add the following to my diet more: tofu, beans/pulses/green vegetables. And I definitely don't eat enough fruit.

Also, apparently, there is a group of food called 'deadly nightshade' food groups, which are potentially inflammation inducing food - including potatoes, tomatoes, red peppers/capsicums. And, unfortunately, these are my favourite food. Ever. I can't bear to stop those.

deadly nightshade food

Oh you are lovely. I've been feeling quite weepy today worrying about it all as well as the pain. You have given me some hope, thank you.

I was unsure about heat if there is inflammation but I will try it. Not got a microwave so a hot water bottle it will be. Also have some 'ice' gel if I can get someone to apply it. We have also got a TENS machine - worth a try?

I'll definitely see if I can get some better pain relief from the GP.

I've been trying to carry on as normal because i am scared of being ill and needing lots of time off work. I think I have to face up to the fact that at the moment I am probably getting worse, not better, so need to get my head out of the ostrich position!