MMR Jabs

[Qd]

An osteopath told me last week she had heard there was a homeopathic alternative to the MMR, but didn't have any info. Does anyone know anything about it?

It strikes me that we are all part of an ongoing experiment as the 'experts' simply do not know the answers to many of these questions.

When the MMR was introduced it was said to offer life long immunity. 10 years later it was discovered immunity wained, ( this is also the case with natural immunity) so a booster was added to the childhood vaccine program.
The new MC vaccine has also been promised to offer life long immunity - is it likely that we will be one day, offered a booster for this as well?

My point is, how many vaccines are we prepared to stick into our children? There will always be scary diseases around, are we to continue to increase the vaccination program accordingly or accept that we can not completly protect everyone from everything.

When I was pregnant with my 4th child the others contracted Slaped cheek which carries a small but fatal risk to unborn babies. This was a very frightening time, but we got through it and everything was okay. Life is a risky business and modern day living is responsible for the high incidence of some disease. It has been suggested that the increase in diseases such as meningitis is because so many children are exposed at a young age in nurserys. If I had used a nursey for my babies and bottlefed them from an early age I would have chosen vaccinations as well.

As I said before, as parents our choices may be right or wrong but we make them for the right reasons
And yes I am well aware there are many waiting to say I told you so if things should go wrong for my kids. However I am an adult making choices of which I am prepared to take the consequences good and bad, I am not however waiting to say ' I told YOU so' should things go wrong for others.

Just because I have not quite got everything off my chest are mums also aware that some health authorities are adding another whooping cough vaccine to the pre school booster
so by the age of 5 your child will receive :
Diptheria - 4
tetanus - 4
Whooping cough 3 or 4 depending on location
polio - 4
hib - 3
meningitis C - 1 (at the moment)
Measles - 2
Mumps - 2
Rubella - 2
Total 25/26
With chicken pox and hepatitis soon to be added!!!!

Lill, er ... shouldn't I be grateful that I'm given the chance to try and reduce the risk of my child contracting one type of Meningitis, Tetanus, Polio, etc? I know this is probably a stupid argument but I'm sure a lot of people in the third world would love to have the chance of such vaccinations (I know this is not an appropriate argument but sometimes I think we don't realise how lucky we are). I wouldn't actually vaccinate against something like chickenpox because this doesn't lead to complications. However, running the risk of the various complications asssociated with Mumps and Rubella isn't something I would want to put my child through. I did hear on the radio the other day a woman called in to say her elderly husband had died from Mumps, presumably contracted from an infected child, so I just think we owe it to others too to try and avoid these diseases.
I understand that the criteria of defining autisim has been hugely expanded in recent years and one theory is that due to this more people are now being diagnosed as being autistic which they wouldn't have been 15 years ago, surely this has to be borne in mind too when discussing the rise in autism?
I think this is the sort of debate where people have already made up their mind and no amount of discussion is likely to change that (like politics!).
I don't know why I'm contributing really!!!!!

If any of you read French, I would really recommend this article by Dr Odent who is French but works in the UK - he is a pionneer in natural birth (he is quite famous):
www.ctanet.fr/vaccination-information/bull012c.htm

I'll only translate a TINY bit of it : (the article focuses on several types of vaccines not just MMR)

"M. Odent explains what he calls cul-de-sac epidemiology. Current trends in epidemiology is to always repeat the same studies, even when we know ahead of time what the results will be, that's what is called epidemiologie "circulaire" (going in circle). But what is interesting, is the opposite, epidemiology cul-de- sac. In an article published in the Lancet in April 2000, M. Odent arrived at the conclusion that today there are politically correct studies and those that are not.

He concludes :
M. Odent is often asks by parents who are faced with the vaccination dilemmas, what choices should they make. M. Odent then tells them that in vaccinations is not about established scientific data but more about beliefs, opinions, pre-concieved ideas, intuitions and impressions."

I think he is on the ball !

Janus the point is chicken pox does lead to complications and even death in at risk people but luckily most of us only experience the less disturbing effects. I suspect that is also the case with measles etc. Most of us dont remember it for ourselves so rely on the hype that tells us how dangerous it was and everyone knows someone who knows someone .... Will this be the same for chicken pox when our grandchildren are having the vaccine? - Just a thought.

Pupuce, I did a four day training course to be a doula with Dr Michel Odent, he is a very fascinating man.

He told us about a lot of illness that are related to the state of the mother's health whilst she was pregnant. There is a correlation between flu and schizophrenia and other combinations.
The hilarious thing on this course was every time somebody treid to give an example based on experience, he would say "one case does not make a statistic!" By the end of the course that was the catchphrase.!

I subscribed to his journal Primal health for a while as it is really interesting reading, another good journal about these sort of issues is "What doctors don't tell you" If anyone wants any further details on them I can dig them out

Janus, I had the same thought about children in third world countries. My decision - this is for pro-jabbers only, of course - was to send some money off to UNICEF to contribute to their vaccination programme each time I had a jab done for my kids. I felt I was lucky to have the chance to vaccinate, to be able to read the medical information and decide for myself, and to have healthy children in the first place (who, as has been pointed out, would have a better survival rate anyway).

Lill, good point about Chickenpox, I think it brings on shingles (potentially fatal for the elderly frail) doesn't it? In that case, I would consider giving a vaccination. Can't quite remember though but isn't there a vaccination against shingles the elderly can have?
What do you think about vaccinating your child to protect others, ie not just your child? I may be a bit 'idealistic'???

Sorry but I dont believe in vaccinating one child for the sake of others. There is no proof that it actually works. (pls refer to my previous posts re other 'risky' diseases/ how much can we protect)

Also though current evidence that there is a link between MMR and Crohns is questionable there is no proof that there is not a link. Where there is reasonable doubt means we should investigate further. My childs health is above Politics thanks very much! And no I am no more convinced now Tony has come out!

Where I admit that the ethics towards finding vaccines was a legitimate one. I dont believe the ethics of 'selling' them in a developed country are ALWAYS legitiamte. At the end of the day this is a HUGE money spinner.

THERE IS NO PROOF IN THE STATEMENT LIFELONG IMMUNITY. Diseases that most(not all, I admit) children recover from are not so 'friendly' if caught in later life.

Also why are people who have vaccinated their children so frightened of outbreaks? Surely their kids are protected? Outbreaks will always occur no matter how many children are vaccinated.

pupuce where are you - I need back up!

Sorry pupuce just read your latest comment, must have missed it before.
Btw Odent happens to be one of my heros - natural childbirth guru and all that. My 4 kids are all homebirth/waterbirths. But thats another thread...
Anyone out there recognised me yet. God I hope not. It is so nice to 'go off on one' when your anonymous!

Genuinely curious question - If vaccines don't work (which some of you are saying) how come smallpox was eradicated?

Lill, I'm with you on this

Lill, I was interested to read your experience with 'slapped cheek'...my HV told me that the incidence of this and 'hand, foot & mouth' were increasing rapidly. In her opinion as a direct consequence of immunisation reducing the incidence of other 'childhood' illnesses. I have read that exactly the same thing is happening with meningitis..., and that cases of bacterial meningitis have risen sharply since the introduction of the hib vaccine. (Incidences of meningitis have doubled in the last few years). Chinese researchers have suggested that the polio virus has mutated since the introduction of the polio vaccine, resulting in a sharp rise in other types of related paralytic disease. Drug resistant malaria strains are appearing, and incidences of cerebral malaria are rapidly increasing. Viruses are cunning little buggers, determined to thrive. My fear is that we really have no idea of the longterm impact of mass immunisation programmes and their possible consequences in terms of indestructible 'super-viruses'.

Thank you Faith for achieving, in a small paragraph what I had hoped to in all of my rantings. That is to put forward an effective case for the anti 'pro vaccine campaign'

Funnily enough not only did my kids contract slapped cheek in the early stages of my pregnancy (when the fetus is at greatest risk) but they also got hand foot and mouth just before our 4th was born! - Maybe, if your health visitor is correct we should be asking exactly what good are we doing the community.

Here are a few more of my vaccine niggles for you all to ponder on.

As I said earlier I do not have a problem with anyone who chooses to vaccinate. This is an emotive issue and everyones feelings are valid. I do however think that playing with nature usually ends up with her giving us a huge kick up the backside. as BSE has shown.
Um on the topic of animals wasnt it interesting that they decided not to vaccinate against foot and mouth as 'it would keep the disease around for longer'!

Have any of you been made aware of the content of some vaccines. Mercury is one hidden nasty in many vaccines! But 'they' omit to tell you that.

Also has anyone heard any new research into the new meningitis c vaccine. I am particularly interested in the theory that after vaccination, the virus, if it was in the body prior to vaccination, could mutate to the B strain. I know studies were being done by swabbing teenagers throats before and after vaccination but I have not heard of the results. Anyone know?

If it turns out that immunity gained by this vaccine wains after 10years as it does with other vaccines. All our little ones who have been vaccinated will suddenly be at risk as they enter their teens - the very age that meningitis C tends to hit! Food for thought.
Young children are more vulnerable to the B strain of meningitis but as a vaccine is not on the cards we dont hear so much about it. Whenever cases of meningitis are reported in the media, no one clarifies which strain it is. we are merely expected to belive these cases fuel the argument for using the meningitis c vaccine.

I'm very interested to hear about this: ds has not had Men.C, but was due to and I got the date wrong. Didn't occur to me particularly to be wary of this one, should I?

Smew, you have raised a very good point. Based on a sample of twelve children ( my two and ten of my sisters and friends I have highlt compelling scientific proof that eating weetabix causes the following in toddlers:

1. general messiness
2. mood swings
3. refusal to put toys away unless in the mood
4. day long pestering for juice, milk, going to see granny etc.
5. pathological interest in Tweenies
6. unpredictable attitude to food - long held favourites may be rejected out of hand for no reason
7. prolonged periods of whining particularly in abscence of juice, lollies, going to see granny, teletubbies etc.

I have written to Tony Blair to ask if he feeds Leo Weetabix but he has declined to comment.
I feel further research is called for.

message withdrawn

Jasper, that explains all.

Jasper - now very concerned. My 2 year old dd had weetabix for the first time this morning and now seems to be displaying some of the signs listed in your post. The effects seemed to be almost immediate. She is also insisting on watching a video of Brum, surely this is something no non-weetabix child would ever do.

On Breakfast news yesterday the anchorwoman said something along the lines of "The Government is convinced the vaccine is safe and to prove it they are spending £3 million on an advertising campaign"! Is this on top of the 3Million already spent? And how does an advert prove a vaccine's safe? Jesus, they could save a fortune if only Tony would say Leo had had the blooming thing!
Also, it is accepted that all vaccines carry risks. So, if we are to vaccinate for the "greater good" of the masses the Government should make it a damn sight easier for the small percentage of people damaged to get compensation - and this applies to all vaccines.
My son has had his MMR with no problems thank God - but is yet to have his booster. No doubt I will feel sick with worry when the time comes - but hopefully by then more will be known about the safety or not of the vaccine.

Since we are all sharing data... what about this one ? This is on Measles....

The vaccine does not appear to give any long-lasting immunity, since children are offered up to 3 doses of the MMR vaccine. There is also concern that vaccinated mothers do not confer immunity on their children, a concern which has been raised by the Centre for Disease Control, USA. By 1993, more than 25% of measles cases in the US occurred in babies under one, when the risk of complications from measles is higher. This has been attributed to the fact that their mothers were vaccinated in the 1960?s, 70?s and 80?s and therefore could not pass on any natural protection to their children through the placenta during pregnancy, or through breast milk. (1)

But most measles now occurs in teenagers and young adults, when the rate of complications from the illness can be increased by as much as 20% and the young person is at risk from getting things like pneumonia and liver problems. The vaccine simply alters disease patterns, but does not eradicate the disease. (2)

According to the World Health Organisation, vaccinated people are 14 times more likely to contract measles than those who haven?t been vaccinated. (3)

(1) Daniel Q Haney, ?Wave of infant measles stems from 60?s vaccinations?, Albuquerque Journal, November 23, 1992, p.B3
(2)Vaccines: Are they really safe and effective? A Parents Guide to Childhood Shots, by Neil Z Miller, 1992, New Atlantean Press

(3) National Health Federation Bulletin, November 1969.

I have decided to follow the route of single jabs and my children (2.5 and 4.5) are due to have the measles component tomorrow. I did feel confident that for me, this was the right decision - but from listening to all the current coverage does anyone know if the traces of measles virus found in some autistic children has only been found after the triple MMR jab - or could it equally be found after the single measles jab. ie Is there a lower risk of risk of side effects after the single jab or very similar? (I'm not talking about the risk of getting measles versus having the jab - just the relative safety/risks of the MMR triple and the single jabs). Any thoughts/answers please!