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Original poster

Unsure about vaccinations? Try reading "Deadly Choices"

449 replies

arkestra · 31/08/2013 12:41

I got Whooping Cough recently at age 43, what fun. Apparently vaccine immunity for WC wears off after a few decades. It was as ill as I have ever been and I was pretty much out of action for 3 months. There has been an increase of WC cases recently in the SW of England, where I live. I could rant at anti -vaccine campaigners, but what would be the point? I am more concerned that the people who are unsure have access to a clear statement of the pro-vaccine position.

So can I suggest that anyone who is unsure about vaccination reads "Deadly Choices" on the pro-vaccine front even if they read nothing else?

I just had my early summer ruined. But babies get killed by this kind of thing. I totally get why people find vaccines icky and unsettling, there are hard wired ways we intuitively think about our bodies that foster that kind of reaction. So just read this book if you're on the fence OK? It would be nice if lots of other 40-somethings don't irritate everyone else with their wheezing and self-pity Grin

(Gets back off soapbox)

OP posts:
bumbleymummy · 01/09/2013 20:16

No, Jake. It's still not available afaik.

nickelbabe · 01/09/2013 20:17

that's not why I asked the question.

and no to which part?

Crumbledwalnuts · 01/09/2013 20:41

Yes, I've been immunised, no to the other questions. Why?

Crumbledwalnuts · 01/09/2013 20:46

Maybe you don't quite get it, nickel babe? I have a perfect right to ask about your immunity and your checking and boosting because you are calling me (and others who don't vaccinate) selfish - (we've also had freeloaders and various other things). It's not that I particularly care about your immunity, but if you're being inconsistent, do as I say not as I do, then that needs to be exposed :)

So it's rather nice of me to answer your personal questions, because I don't have to, really, because I'm not planning to accuse you of damaging herd immunity.

nickelbabe · 01/09/2013 21:03

actually, you have prompted me to make an appt to have my immunity tested, and I have also asked dh if he would be willing to do the same.
it's possibly much more important for dh as he has asthma, and would be more likely to suffer if he caught a disease. and he's older too.

I know that I am immune to chicken pox, even though (to my knowledge) I've never had it, because I made sue I was tested when I was pg. and I've been told that as I've had measles I'm immune for life.

and reading rhis thread has also made me a bit worried that my or dh's potential waning immunity could put us both in danger once dd starts school (because disease and illness seem to be a constant threat in school incubators)
I certainly wouldnmt want to be the reason dh caught a nasty disease.
whether they'll do it on the nhs is yet to be discovered, but I'm more sure that they'll do dh's cos of his asthma.

nickelbabe · 01/09/2013 21:05

and it would be nice to know anyway - everytime I came across a case of chicken pox I would get very worried about catching it.

Crumbledwalnuts · 01/09/2013 21:09

Gosh that's good. Not for the immunity thing, but because it means that you really mean what you say. That's very honest and you know. It's alright :)

PoppyAmex · 01/09/2013 21:12

Crumbled as part of two very complex pregnancies and a paranoid international health insurance I have indeed had my immunity tested for pretty much everything in the past 2 years, from MMR to pertussis and even Malaria and other tropical vaccines.

So given the amount of times you made this a pre-requirement to have an pro-vaccine stance on this thread, I'm sure you'll allow me to stand by my original opinion which is that people who choose not to vaccinate are, in my opinion, social parasites.

Crumbledwalnuts · 01/09/2013 21:15

Well, it's not hypocritical, just completely wrong and somewhat offensive but there we are. It's a start!

TwasBrillig · 01/09/2013 21:21

I'd like to vaccinate mine against chicken pox. Its normal in Australia where our relatives are and they were surprised we don't.

I know its not usually as serious as whooping cough but I'd still rather they didn't have it.

nickelbabe · 01/09/2013 21:32

but it can be serious, chicken pox.
it csn cause severe complications in pregnancy.

I think they don't vaccinate it because it's easier to have it. (or something more precise)

and I never did because it hadn't occured to me that it could be an issue. I assumed (like most people) that aside from tetanus, vaccines were for life.

nickelbabe · 01/09/2013 21:34

(never did thinknabout testing immunity)

Original poster
arkestra · 01/09/2013 21:35

Seriously I would not put everyone who doesn't vaccinate into the same box.

I talked to someone once who believed in standard vaccine orthodoxy - the whole nine yards - and didn't vaccinate. They actually described themselves as a freeloader!BlushThey thought they were being very clever. Twat. But that attitude is very rare.

But I am sure most people who avoid vaccination aren't doing it through some kind of cold-hearted game-theoretic stance. They have other reasons. I am interested in understanding those reasons. It's not helpful to characterise vaccine refusers as having this kind of game-theoretic stance because they will just get defensive and fling poo back and no one learns anything.

Crumbled and I can barely exchange one bit of information at a time without sniping but that doesn't mean I think Crumbled is a freeloader. Just that we appear to be organising our experiences of the world into seriously incompatible mental categories.

OP posts:
PoppyAmex · 01/09/2013 21:49

arkestra you might well be right and I applaud your position.

However, whilst I'm perfectly happy to leave woo-lovers and conspiracy theorists to it while they discuss crystals, Roswell or Lee Oswald, I find public health a somewhat more serious matter.

These people are knowingly putting vulnerable members of our society at danger and yet I'm sure they were the first in line to receive medical assistance and their nasty chemical substances during the recent outbreak in Wales, for example.

In my experience, any debate is pointless because one will be quoting respected peer reviewed epidemiologists whilst receiving arguments from criminals like Andrew Wakefield.

I need to step away from this thread.

LaVolcan · 01/09/2013 22:10

These people are knowingly putting vulnerable members of our society at danger and yet I'm sure they were the first in line to receive medical assistance and their nasty chemical substances during the recent outbreak in Wales, for example.

Certain groups, like some of your religious fundamentalists in the USA, keep very much to themselves. If they don't vaccinate, they don't mix with the general population either so they are only putting themselves at risk by this stance. Nor are they likely to be first in line for medical assistance.

Other people don't vaccinate, but believe that the option is to maintain the best health possible by diet, healthy lifestyle etc., so that they don't catch the diseases in the first place.

The vast majority of us don't suscribe to either of these views, but do wonder why the current vaccine policies are as they are. Since we started with whooping cough - why is there not more information about how you immunity can wane, for example? You may not even realise you have the disease - the whoop part doesn't always show in adults, but just seems to be a cough you can't shake off. Coughs can be caused by a number of things, e.g. smoking, so you are not necessarily going to realise that you are infectious.

Original poster
arkestra · 01/09/2013 22:20

Poppy I think we agree on vaccine efficacy and share frustration etc. I give monthly payments to the Richard Dawkins Foundation so that's my starting point in terms of woo tolerance levels Grin

But from this thread I've learned that (hopefully relatively minor compared to pre-vax days) Pertussis outbreaks every few years are inevitable given current vaccine technology. Also that vaccines in general last on average for far less time than I thought. And that "herd immunity" is a crap term to use when debating with vaccine doubters.

So it's actually been way more informative than I was expecting. I was expecting a complete split between woo-haters and woo-lovers with maybe 1 person in between who would actually Read The Frigging Book I Recommended. Instead I actually got my perceptions changed, a definite result.

Do I have a positive impression of Wakefield right now? Hell, no. Will I read his book? Sure. Will I fact-check his assertions? Yep. Will that mean I can engage with people who view him as an authority more effectively? Hope so.

OP posts:
sashh · 02/09/2013 06:25

crumble

Are you agreeing or disagreeing with me?

Crumbledwalnuts · 02/09/2013 07:23

I disagree with you

PoppyAmex · 02/09/2013 09:04

LaVolcan said:

"Certain groups, like some of your religious fundamentalists in the USA, keep very much to themselves. If they don't vaccinate, they don't mix with the general population either so they are only putting themselves at risk by this stance. Nor are they likely to be first in line for medical assistance."

Interesting that you should choose that example; clearly they "mix" enough considering this just happened a few days ago

LaVolcan · 02/09/2013 09:19

PoppyAmex: I felt that I was possibly maligning some sincere people there, talking about fundamentalists. Seems not.

Frontdoorstep · 02/09/2013 14:32

I have a chronic medical condition that is listed as a rare side effect to some vaccines, and has been linked anecdotally to vaccines, I know and accept there is no proof of this.

So, I'm not risking another vaccine for myself or vaccinating my children to provide herd immunity to some one else, end of subject.

As for pregnant women having a whooping cough vaccine, I'm certain the uptake was nowhere nea 100%, perhaps some one will provide the real figure, if a pregnant woman cant protect her own child, what on earth am I doing protecting that child.

Frontdoorstep · 02/09/2013 14:34

....and I can't access the latest medicines on the nhs.

nickelbabe · 02/09/2013 14:56

Frontdoorstep

"I have a chronic medical condition that is listed as a rare side effect to some vaccines, and has been linked anecdotally to vaccines, I know and accept there is no proof of this."

I'm pretty sure that most people would accept that as a valid reason not to vaccinate and not to get boosters

nickelbabe · 02/09/2013 14:57

(although, I'm not so convinced by your argument for your child, unless it's also listed as having a genetic precursor)

PoppyAmex · 02/09/2013 16:10

"I have a chronic medical condition that is listed as a rare side effect to some vaccines, and has been linked anecdotally to vaccines, I know and accept there is no proof of this.

So, I'm not risking another vaccine for myself or vaccinating my children to provide herd immunity to some one else, end of subject."

And no one should ask you to; in fact you and your family are precisely the reason why everyone should vaccinate, so that people who can't be as protected as possible.

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