Apparently children who have had good nutrition would just 'shrug it off' if they contracted measles. Why don't they say that in the UK?

[bumbleymummy]

Article is here discussing the impact that poor nutrition has on children in developing countries.

Considering that the majority of children in the UK have no problem with good nutrition (fruit shoots and Greggs aside ) why aren't parents being reassured rather than terrified into having their children vaccinated with images of coffins plastered over the promotional material?

Your article reinforces the fact that if you are vitamin A deficient, you are more likely to suffer severe complications from measles. The Roma group in the study had very poor levels of nutrition. I don't think anyone is questioning that this is a fact.

What is a question to be answered is whether vitamin A supplementation makes any difference to people who are not already deficient.

Why won't you answer the polio vaccine question, bumbly? It's a simple yes/no.and it is relevant to this thread, because people's starting positions are very important. I am completely open about mine.

It also talks about depletion (which could have an effect even if you start from a position of having good levels of Vit A)
From the article:

'Acute measles precipitates vitamin A deficiency by depleting vitamin A stores and increasing its utilization, leading to more severe ocular injury (7,8)."

If it's using up stores of Vit A then it would make sense to be supplementing it during the illness.

re. The polio question - I've already told you, because it's not relevant to thread. Start your own. :)

'People's starting positions' I already said what my starting position was. I have already said I'm not anti vax so what difference does my opinion on the polio vaccine make? If I say I agree with your statement does it change your perception of my opinion about the MMR campaign? It really shouldn't.

The whole 'anti-vax' thing is ridiculous anyway. Some people delay vaccines or only refuse certain ones (eg. HPV vaccine) yet they are all bundled in under the 'anti-vax' umbrella anytime a topic like this comes up - even though they've vaccinated!

Curlew, I'm another one who finds the whole 'starting position' thing a bit weird.

This is just an internet chat - it isn't an academic paper where we have to declare conflicts of interest!

I indulged you and answered the question but I think the fact that you even asked the question shows a lack of flexibility and open mindedness on your part - you want everybody to treat 'Vaccination' as one subject. One big whole subject that one is for or against. The physical reality of the subject is much more complex - some vaccines are safer than others, some vaccines work better than others, some individuals react better than others, etc, etc.

It is like you need to use polio as some sort of litmus test to discuss anything to do with the big homogeneous subject in your head which is labelled 'Vaccination'.

Would you ask someone if they thought paracetamol worked as pain relief before you would agree to discuss anti-depressants with them? Or are vaccines (and their different brands and strains) the only type of drug that you treat as homogeneous?

Anyway, back to vitamin A.

I find it concerning that there seems to be an assumption that vitamin A deficiency is rare in developed countries.

It doesn't seem to be rare in New Zealand amongst average children or in the US when children with measles are examined.

Interestingly, from the second link;

Among these children with measles in an urban United States community, retinol concentrations were depressed, and the degree of depression was associated with illness severity. Vitamin A therapy should be considered for children with measles in the United States who require hospitalization.

Sorry for multiple posts but just wanted to say to curlew that I hope you do start that polio thread because in addition to what I said earlier, I would be really interested in a discussion of Non Polio Acute Flaccid Paralysis (NP-AFP), especially in the explosion of cases which have occurred in India as polio paralysis has been reducing.

I don't know a lot about this but wonder if there are other viruses that compete with polio in the human gut or if immunity to wild polio provides protection against other paralysis inducing enteroviruses.

Certainly there is plenty to discuss here.

wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/18/11/11-1457_article.htm

However, analysis of WHO-monitored polio surveillance data on the number of AFP, polio AFP, and NP-AFP cases available at the public domains (www.polioeradication.org/External Web Site Icon; www.searo.who.int/vaccineExternal Web Site Icon; www.npspindia.org/External Web Site Icon) (2?5) from 1998 through June 2, 2012, in India shows that concomitant with the phenomenal elimination of wild poliovirus transmission in India was an annual increase in the number of reported AFP cases from 2005 to date throughout the country (2?4). Although 8,103?9,705 were reported during 1998?2003, a total of 55,782 and 60,883 cases were reported during 2010 and 2011, respectively. Through June 2, a total of 20,677 AFP cases were reported in India during 2012, compared with 18,625 during the corresponding period in 2011 (4). This large increase in NP-AFP cases, which represent AFP cases caused by agents other than poliovirus, probably reflects the excellent implementation of the expanded definition of AFP and highly sensitive surveillance and detection methods used by NPSP in India from 2005 onwards, in contrast to the other polio-endemic countries, i.e., Pakistan, Nigeria, and Afghanistan, where the expanded AFP surveillance is not in place (1?5). The large increase in the NP-AFP rate from 1.45 and 1.97 per 100,000 children during 1998?2003 to 16.20 in 2011 (3?5) further reflects the excellent operational performance of the expanded AFP surveillance in India.

beachcomber, you're still pretending there isn't an elephant in the room. Your 8 reasons combined together are still less important than the main reason that people fear MMR. Why are you pretending otherwise?

What is a question to be answered is whether vitamin A supplementation makes any difference to people who are not already deficient.

• and who have also been vaccinated against measles.

Given that most people have been vaccinated against measles, and those with measles and those who can't be vaccinated will be in contact with a doctor already, who would be the intended recipients of a general public information campaign on vit a and measles?

Unless vit a is an alternative to vaccination, or there is fear that people already vaccinated are at risk, a general campaign doesn't make sense.

So do you think that those who have been vaccinated can't catch measles?

You can still contract measles even if you've been vaccinated. Vaccines aren't 100% effective.

X post la volcan.

That's what I'm asking you.

You are suggesting a public information campaign. If you believe (for whatever reason) that people in general in the UK should take vitamin A supplements to guard against measles even if they have been vaccinated, fair enough.

I think in general people will find that more scary than the little coffins, but if that is what you sincerely believe I suggest you write to your MP.

It doesn't have to be related to measles, although as a parent I would be happy to be informed that vitamin A supplementation can help in cases of measles. It would help me in knowing what to do to help my child if they did contract measles and also help me in advance to give their immune system the best chance of fighting the virus should they contract it.

Just to have a wider campaign about the importance of good nutrition (supplements included) in supporting the immune system would be good.

Just think how much public money could be saved if people ate a healthier diet and had better nutrition. Rickets, diabetes, a multitude of diseases could be helped by better nutrition and diet.

Suggesting a vitamin is scarier than a coffin? Really? Is that only because its suggesting that the vaccine may not guarantee protection? (Which is true but some people don't know that)

Are you scared by the current Vit D supplement recommendations merry?

merry my friend is v concerned about measles as there is a case in nursery and she has a baby as well as an older child. She is also unsure of her own vaccination status. She was amazed to hear the info on vit a. A letter has been sent home about how to spot the illness and what to do but it didn't mention vit a.

Also many of the confirmed cases in the merseyside outbreak were fully vaccination. No vaccine is100%.

You still haven't clarified whether you think everybody should be taking extra vitamin a just incase during a measles outbreak. Im just trying to understand your point of view.

Curlew, if you want to start a thread about polio with this question:

"Do you think that the virtual irradiation of polio worldwide is overwhelmingly down to vaccination?"

I will happily contribute.

Why would you need to take extra vitamin A? Just take a regular multivitamin everyday or cod liver oil or eat a wide range of foods that contain vitamin A. If you contract measles you could supplement with more if necessary.

The problem is you want to put people in boxes so that then you can disagree with them, however reasonable or cogent their argument, or agree with them, however unreasonable and specious their argument, depending on whether you are 'on their side'. Turns out LaVolcan is someone I agree with a lot, but I didn't know that at the start, and her first post on this thread disagreed with me, and I said yes you're right. I don't have any problems with knowing people's starting positions - have they got a good case, yes or no? ps bumbley, la volcan, beach and jack you have a banging case

Want to know something about me? Between them my children have had more than 50 immunisations. How does that help you decide whether a Vitamin A supplement will help people in a measles outbreak?

Why won't anti-vaxxers "come out"?

Why are you so convinced there are closet 'anti-vaxxers'? You've been trying to goad these hidden anti-vaxxers to out themselves for days? How do you even know they're there?

All I can see is people asking for honest, comprehensive information on the treatment and prevention of measles.

I can't speak for anyone else (because I am not in league with anyone else here and I doubt we agree on everything) but I'd like to see a single measles vaccine available on the NHS. I believe in patient choice, it has been effective for many years and I think it would increase uptake. I think any additional cost would be offset by the decrease in cases of measles (requiring expensive hospital care). Regarding the latter point, I have no evidence for this and I doubt anyone has attempted to calculate the cost/benefit.

There was a suggestion earlier in the thread that anyone who questions vaccines is a conspiracy theorist who believes Obama is a Muslim stooge... So its quite funny that it is you curlew who is the conspiracy theorist on this thread with your 'anti-vaxxer' witch hunt.

JoTheHot you have rather lost me I'm afraid with your mysterious posting style!

You keep talking of an 'elephant in the room' in a kind of odd manner. If you are talking about children developing autism after having MMR, I thought it was probably clear that the following points from my above post were about that.

that two out of the three original brands are no longer used in the west due to them being unsafe.

the high number of reports and court cases involving children reacting badly to the third brand which is now the only one remaining on the western market.

that many people remain unconvinced over the safety of administering 3 live viral vaccines in one injection.

that many of the studies designed to testify to the safety of MMR vaccines are fatally flawed and conflicted.

the lack of alternative explanation for what has happened to children thought to have reacted badly to their MMR vaccine.

HTH

So. This information about Vitamin A that should be widely disseminated. What exactly is it going to say?

So. You wanted to know starting positions and you did go on and on about it. I've told you my children have had more than 50 immunisations between them. How does that help you decide what you think about Vitamin A?

It doesn't, crumbled.

I ^know what I think about vitamin a therapy for measles. I know that it is very effective in reducing complications and mortality in groups/people who have vitamin A deficiency. I don't know anything else- because neither does anyone else, apparently.