Apparently children who have had good nutrition would just 'shrug it off' if they contracted measles. Why don't they say that in the UK?

[bumbleymummy]

Article is here discussing the impact that poor nutrition has on children in developing countries.

Considering that the majority of children in the UK have no problem with good nutrition (fruit shoots and Greggs aside ) why aren't parents being reassured rather than terrified into having their children vaccinated with images of coffins plastered over the promotional material?

"Is there any evidence that Vitamin A specifically helps you fight off measles?"
I must admit I can't believe you posted this Curlew, after all the links and information. You can't possibly have had your Sherlock hat on.

Ah, different definition of "fight it off". Sorry.

So when you accept that good nutrition helps you fight off the infection, you think that means you don't catch the infection? So how does good nutrition help, if your body doesn't even have the infection?

To me "fighting off" means generally recovering from the infection. Which obviously being well nourished helps you do. The vitamin A therapy is aimed at specific complications of measles in populations where there is vitamin A deficiencies. I was asking whether an ordinary, uncomplicated case of measles would be helped by vitamin A.

Yes, so it's the same definition. Vitamin A helps you recover from measles. All measles is ordinary measles. An uncomplicated case of measles - well no help would be needed by definition because it would uncomplicated. And it would probably be uncomplicated because a child was well-nourished with plentiful stores of Vit A and no underlying conditions like, I don't know, asthma or something. You're scraping the barrel to try to find something negative about Vitamin A and measles.

Why on earth would I do that?

I have no idea - it's the only explanation for the line of questioning. To suggest that to "fight off measles" means you don't catch measles is strange - even stranger when you then say a few moments later the exact opposite - that "fighting" off means recovering from the infection.

And how can you say you don't know if Vitamin A helps you recover from measles when so much evidence has been posted on the thread?

Curlew it is highly likely that a straightforward case of measles with no complications and mild symptoms would not be noticeably helped with vitamin A (but then it wouldn't really need any help if the person was doing just fine!). Just as a straightforward case with no secondary bacterial infection would not be helped by antibiotics.

The point is that the complications that we fear in measles such as respiratory distress, vision problems, hearing problems, etc. can be prevented through vitamin A therapy. And surely that is something really positive and reassuring for parents - especially considering how worried the government has got us about the disease.

It really is very simple. Measles infection depletes vitamin A. Depletion of vitamin A causes complications. Vitamin A therapy helps prevent this.

What is surprising is that given what a hugely important public health issue the government is making measles out to be, that they neglect to have a policy on vitamin A therapy.

If you like it is a bit like putting the fear of god into people about a bacterial infection and neglecting to mention that there is an effective antibiotic treatment available.

It is a very odd position for the government to take. But then so much of the government's position on MMR is plain weird. They talk so much bull about this vaccine.

And did you know that vitamin A also affects immune function?

To the extent that the WHO recommends giving children in developing countries vitamin A supplements when they receive their measles vaccine as the supplements have been shown to improve the immune response to the vaccine.

Pretty cool stuff is vitamin A.

All you do by throwing in the Vitamin A stuff is to cause confusion and undermine vaccination rates.

"oh, I don't need to vaccinate, because if my child gets measles, I'll just treat with Vitamin A " and returning to the original post "all you need is good nutrition" ... like Roald Dahl's daughter?

Prevention is better than cure. Vitamin A is a potential adjunct therapy, but no substitution for MMR.

Coorong I don't think people really have that sort of thought process. The vast majority of people want to have their children vaccinated against measles because as you say 'prevention is better than cure'.

Measles vaccine uptake is very high - although the MMR vaccine (which is not the only way to protect against measles despite what the government might say) uptake has a more patchy history.

I doubt that any government policy on vitamin A therapy would send out a message that measles vaccines are not important for public health. I'm sure that they could word things in a way to communicate that vit A is not a substitute for vaccination but it is a 'plan B' in the event of measles infection.

The World Health Organisation recommends global measles vaccination and is very robust in doing so. And yet they manage to publish a lot of information on vitamin A therapy. I doubt it is beyond the DoH to do the same.

I think they don't do it because it would make their scaremongering about measles less effective with regards to getting people to comply with their MMR policy. I doubt they would need to do so much scaremongering if they offered single measles vaccines. The vast majority of people want their children vaccinated against measles, but quite a number of these people are nervous of the MMR vaccine - and so the government has to scare them into accepting it. And they do so by frightening people with the dangers of measles. There is very very little talk of either rubella or mumps used in the marketing of the MMR vaccine - neither of these diseases frighten people enough to convince them to put aside their questioning of the triple vaccine. And so the government uses people's fear of measles in order to get them to comply with a short sighted vaccine programme that smacks of creating demand for a product because the product exists.

Manufactures developed MMR vaccines at a time when there was no actual demand for such a vaccine. People were pretty happy with the policy of single measles vaccine and rubella for non immune teenage girls.

The MMR vaccine has been a tough vaccine to sell to the public. Combined vaccines worry people and many people question the wisdom of giving young children mumps and rubella vaccines.

And so all the government and the manufactuers have to sell the MMR vaccine is measles and the manufacturing of a parental fear of the disease.

Exactly the same thing was done in the US with the chicken pox vaccine. People are terrified of chicken pox over there.

And of course we should be vigilant and take these diseases seriously - but to be perfectly frank I don't think the UK government's attitude does show that they genuinely take measles seriously. If they did they would have a policy on vitamin A therapy and they would offer single measles vaccines. They seem to take the marketing of the pharmaceutical product that is MMR much more seriously than they take the actual threat of measles.

Is vitamin a given to children with severe measles in UK hospitals?

NHS says supplements may be recommended for children under two years of age with severe measles, but suggests going via GP.

Very good post Beach.

I also totally agree with Beachcomber's post. It sums up the situation perfectly.

like Roald Dahl's daughter?

The reason why this stirs the heartstrings is because it was rare even then.

"All you do by throwing in the Vitamin A stuff is to cause confusion and undermine vaccination rates. "

"I think they don't do it because it would make their scaremongering about measles less effective with regards to getting people to comply with their MMR policy."
Yes and Coorong has just voiced exactly that.

Yes another one totally supporting beach's post, especially the last paragraph.

Everything beachcomber said.

All you do by throwing in the Vitamin A stuff is to cause confusion and undermine vaccination rates

Are you seriously suggesting coorong despite links to the evidence of the benefits of vitamin A and advice from the WHO this information should be supressed?! And people ill with measles shouldn't be told about this treatment?

That kind of deliberate disinformation is exactly the kind of thing that creates distrust and suspicion of the DOH/government or whoever decides to censor the facts.

I know - another attempt to silence this "dangerous" information.

Ok- I'm going to have one last go at making myself clear.

I don't think vitamin A therapy and vaccination should be talked about in the same sentence. However, i do think that there is a point to be made about this and I'll make it at the end of this post.

*Large doses of vitamin A have been shown to be very beneficial in protecting children from some of the complications of measles when the child is deficient in vitamin A due to malnutrition in developing countries.

Being well nourished helps the body fight infection.

Measles does deplete the body's vitamin A reserves.

Vitamin A deficiency is very very rare in the developed world- it is an easily obtained vitamin*

The bold section is what we know for sure. Anything else is speculation. We don't know whether giving a vitamin A supplement to children who are not deficient will make them even more able to fight off measles. A normal supplement certainly isn't going to do any harm. However, it is easy to overdose on Vitamin A and the consequences can be serious.

I don't know why more isn't made of Vitamin A in NHS literature. I can speculate that it's because taking extra has no effect on well nourished children's response to measles, and that the body's reserves, if they are normal, are able to adequately take the "hit" that the virus gives them.

I do have a concern when vitamin A and vaccination are talked about together. It seems to me that, if a parent was wavering about vaccination, and got the idea that taking extra vitamin A is an effective treatment for measles they might decide not to vaccinate, thereby leaving their own children vulnerable, and also reducing the level of herd immunity necessary to protect those people who can't be vaccinated.

Bold fail. When I talk about the bold passage, I mean the bit between th to asterisks.