Apparently children who have had good nutrition would just 'shrug it off' if they contracted measles. Why don't they say that in the UK?

[bumbleymummy]

Article is here discussing the impact that poor nutrition has on children in developing countries.

Considering that the majority of children in the UK have no problem with good nutrition (fruit shoots and Greggs aside ) why aren't parents being reassured rather than terrified into having their children vaccinated with images of coffins plastered over the promotional material?

Baffled now. Hey ho- not the first time.

I wish I could go on the obfuscation training course. I think I would find it very useful.

What's so baffling?

People's motivations. I prefer straight talking.

People are straight talking - you just seem to want the topic to be something else.

Agreed bumbley. I think she would like us to say that we are anti-vaccination. As far as I can tell, none of us are, but we do think there should be more advice about Vitamin A if you do get measles. Which you can still catch even if you have had the MMR.

Baffled Curlew? There's nothing to be baffled about. Here's some straight-talking. Some people are so obsessed with vaccination that you are not even allowed to say that it's a good idea to eat well to fight off infective disease, or to point out what thousands, literally thousands of studies have found, that Vitamin A helps fight off measles, without people accusing you of telling people not to vaccinate, guessing the medical status of your children, accusing you of having a monomania, being a merchant of doubt, being in denial, being anti-vaxxx, on the side of big tobacco and big oil, believing President Obama is a Muslim stooge.

I mean how insanely obsessed with vaccination do you have to be to make this ridiculous claims? All the conventional literature says eating well will help you fight off disease, Vit A eases measles complications, food poverty is a big problem in the UK, millions of children have poor diets and don't get the RDA of vitamins. The obsessed pro-vaccinators tell us that one dose of a vaccine is so marvellous it's 90-95 per cent effective. But if you believe what every single doctor on the planet believes - that good nutrition helps you fight off infective disease - apparently you are not allowed to say that one dose of a vaccine is 90-95 per cent effective - because that is sowing the seeds of doubt about the remaining 5 per cent.

Of course I could go on. The illogical, contradictory, hypocritical reasoning on display on this thread from certain people - who don't want anyone to vocalise what every single doctor knows to be true - is quite, quite ridiculous, and the attempts to silence the discussion are depressing.

For your benefit Curlew - here's the paragraph without the link fail. See if you're still struggling with it.

All you people who think it's OK to put a coffin on a measles leaflet even though it's a rare cause of death - just because measles can in certain extreme circumstances be fatal. How about we put a coffin on an MMR leaflet because death is an extreme adverse reaction there, too? How about we put a pictures on MMR leaflets of people with pancreatitis parotitis; nausea, diabetes, Thrombocytopenia, lymphadenopathy, leukocytosis, chronic Arthritis,
arthralgia, myalgia, encephalitis ?

I think the problem is the conflation of two issues. And extrapolating from what we do know into assumptions.

We know that Vitamin A significantly reduces serious complications from measles in children who are deficient in Vitamin A. This does not mean that vitamin A helps fight off measles, or that extra Vitamin A has any effect at all on children who are not deficient. Or that taking Vitamin A confers any protection from measles. Taking a multi vitamin won't do any harm- but is probably not going to do any good either- Vitamin A deficiency is very rare indeed in the developed world.

Vaccination is an entirely different topic. While it is about conferring immunity on the individual, the is also the issue of "herd immunity". So ensuring that as many people as possible are immune is the best way of protecting those who for whatever reason can't be vaccinated. So even if extra vitamin A helped healthy children not to get measles ( which nobody says it does) the immuno compromised would still be vulnerable.

Oh give over Curlew. Bumbley and I have been contrasting the publicity for vaccination and the publicity for nutrition and vitamin A. It's other people who've brought up the anti-vax issue, the vaccine side effects, the issue of herd immunity (what on earth has that got to do with this thread?). It's just so predictable.

Here's another way of summing up the thread.

1. Good nutrition and good stores of Vit A help you fight off measles
2. Yes but don't say it or you also believe President Obama is a Muslim stooge.

Boring and predictable.

Oh, sorry, posted too soon.

And nothing that works comes without risk- vaccination, measles, vitamins......and nobody is pretending otherwise.

It's all about the balance of risk. Personally and societally (if that's a word)

"1. Good nutrition and good stores of Vit A help you fight off measles"

Good nutrition helps you fight off any infection. Is there any evidence that Vitamin A specifically helps you fight off measles?

Curlew, I don't think anyone has said that Vit A prevents measles. Maybe the reason you are confused is because you keep imagining that people are saying things that they aren't.

If you read my post earlier this morning, you will see that I specifically said that no one has said they think Vitamin A prevents measles. I am questioning the statement that it helps people fight off measles.

"Or that taking Vitamin A confers any protection from measles. "

"So even if extra vitamin A helped healthy children not to get measles ( which nobody says it does) "

From the same post.

Look curlew, here is my simple thought process.

The government is really really concerned that UK children are going to be seriously ill with measles, that there are going to be severe complications and that children will die.

We know that vitamin A supplementation reduces significantly the rates of complication and death in measles cases. We know there is a direct link between the outcome of measles infection and a person's vitamin A status. We know that having measles infection depletes vitamin A stores even in people who have a healthy diet. We know that the depletion of these vitamin A stores leaves people more vulnerable to complications of measles and death from those complications.

Now, it would appear that the government despite being like, rilly rilly concerned about measles deaths and complications, is silent on the most relevant, documented, tested, used, recommended and readily available method of reducing complications and deaths.

And some of us find that a bit especially with the pictures of coffins on leaflets and all.

And those coffin pictures lead me to wonder why exactly they think UK children are so at risk for measles complications and deaths. (The most medically plausible answer being because they think there are issues with their vitamin A status.)

So far, so illogical.

So either they aren't that concerned about complications and deaths (or they would be making this vital information about the importance of vitamin A status available to people), in which case they are scaremongering in order to get people to comply with a controversial vaccine programme or......actually I don't have an or option. Because a) or they don't know about vitamin A, is ridiculous and b) they don't care if some children do get sick in a way that might have been avoided by the administration of vitamin A is too cynical even for the likes of me.

Nobody is saying that vitamin A replaces vaccination.

What we are saying is that if measles is to be feared to the point of putting coffins on leaflets then why on earth isn't there some sort of public health policy on the most effective way we know of to help children cope with the disease? (Because we know that even when vaccine take up is high, measles epidemics still happen.)

If you had a child who got very ill with measles and had to be hospitalised and perhaps ended up with vision problems (which have been well documented to have a link to vitamin A depletion), wouldn't you feel angry that that had been allowed to happen for the purposes of marketing a vaccine ?

"Vitamin A

Vitamin A supplements have been shown in some studies to help prevent some of the serious complications arising from a measles infection, although it is not clear how they help.
Supplements may be recommended for children under two years old with severe measles, or for children with vitamin A deficiency (although this is rare in the UK).
You may wish to ask your GP about whether your child would benefit from taking vitamin A supplements."

From the NHS website.

We studied 20 children with measles in Long Beach, Calif., and found that 50% (95% confidence interval; 28% to 72%) were vitamin A deficient. This frequency among presumably well nourished American children supports evaluation of vitamin A status as a part of acute management of measles in the United States.

Hospitalized US measles patients frequently have deficiencies in vitamin A; these children are more likely to have pneumonia or diarrhea after measles.

(Because we know that even when vaccine take up is high, measles epidemics still happen.)

I am not sure that the authorities are prepared to admit that. There was a lot of stuff in Swansea about people being not or 'incompletely' vaccinated. This would ignore those who had had the single vaccine privately. Of the ones who had had the MMR, 90% of them should have had immunity conferred, so it shouldn't have mattered whether they had the second jab or not. To then blame the epidemic on them seems not exactly honest.

Yes curlew. They talk about vitamin A as though it 'may' help but we don't know why (actually we do and it is well documented) and that vitamin A deficiency is 'rare' in the UK.

From my above link "The World Health Organization recommends vitamin A therapy for all children with measles [204]. For hospitalized children

I realise that it's hardly a ringing endorsement. But it's not "being silent" either.

Are children with severe measles given Vitamin A in this country?

I said the DoH is silent on the issue - by which I meant they do not communicate with the public in a organised manner. They do not communicate on policy. (They may well have one but they keep it pretty quiet if they do and fail to reassure parents in any way that this therapy exists in the event that their child does suffer complications from a disease that the government thinks parents should be really frightened of.)

NICE guidance on measles management in healthy individuals recommends no vitamin A supplementation. Not clear on policy if individuals admitted to hospital, even if previously healthy.

Measles vaccination and vitamin A treatment paper, suggests two high doses of vitamin A reduces mortality by 62%.

Paper suggesting testing for vitamin A levels in adults and children with measles.

Dr F. R. Klenner's work on vitamin C and viral infections is also interesting.

I am otherwise healthy. I have no idea of my vitamin A status.
Anyway, we know that measles depletes vitamin A.
If I caught measles, I think I would be taking a risk if I did not pay attention to my vitamin A intake.

Now, as many people on here have stated, why is my simple little summary not out there in the public domain? Why not on the BBC news during the Swansea outbreak? Health professionals were interviewed. I saw not one of them refer to vitamin A.

Of course I don't mean Vitamin A prevents you getting measles. I've never said it does, and I've specifically said that it doesn't. Vitamin A helps you fight it off. That means it helps you get rid of it without it causing damage.

I agree with everything Beachcomber said.