Apparently children who have had good nutrition would just 'shrug it off' if they contracted measles. Why don't they say that in the UK?

[bumbleymummy]

Article is here discussing the impact that poor nutrition has on children in developing countries.

Considering that the majority of children in the UK have no problem with good nutrition (fruit shoots and Greggs aside ) why aren't parents being reassured rather than terrified into having their children vaccinated with images of coffins plastered over the promotional material?

And I don't see the connection with the second MMR- unless you're saying, which I don't think you are, are you?- that vitamin A supplementation could make vaccination unnecessary?

Yes I've read that it's rare but on the other hand a risk as follows:

toddlers and preschool age children living at or below the poverty level
children with inadequate health care or immunisations
children living in areas with known nutritional deficiencies
recent migrants or refugees from developing countries that have a high incidence of vitamin A deficiency and/or infectious disease

(from Public Health England)

..which is quite a large group. It also notes that a deficiency may be subclinical. Does this address your question?

Re: your point about 2nd MMR. No, I'm contrasting the failure to even mention Vitamin A, and its potential low risk benefit, with the pushing of a treatment which does not benefit 90 (or 95?) pc of recipients - ie its a no benefit-all risk strategy for those patients.

Not read the whole thread, but you can get Vitamin A at higher doses than in a standard multivit, see here. Obviously check with your medical practitioner first as children can reach toxic levels at around 1500 IU per kg of body weight (ref).

It might also be worth taking higher doses of Vitamin D alongside higher doses of vitamin A as there is an antagonistic interaction between the two (ref).

Interestingly while Vitamin A deficiency is very rare in the developed world, Vitamin D deficiency is not. Many people are Vitamin D deficient without realising it, this article mentions that up to 50% of the white population of Britain may be deficient in Vitamin D, up to 25% of all children and up to 90% of the multi-ethnic population. High levels of Vitamin A with low levels of Vitamin D can affect bone mineralisation due to the antagonistic interaction between the two vitamins.

unless you're saying, which I don't think you are, are you?- that vitamin A supplementation could make vaccination unnecessary?

Yes, I'm NOT saying that. Though strictly speaking the 2nd MMR is unnecessary for 90-95 pc of children but everyone knows that.

""there is very clear evidence that children who do suffer complications often have a deficiency, previously unrecognised,"

Aha- a key point, this one. Is this easy to get at clear evidence?

Thanks for the links Stitch.

Aha - your question is - are children with only a mild deficiency more vulnerable? (assume you picked up the subclinical/previously unrecognised reference)

I must go. See you later, have a nice day.

Shame you couldn't answer my question before you went. Never mind, I'm sure you will when you come back.

Yes it is a shame isn't it? Still, now I've got the children sorted I can go for my lovely massage and manicure before I nip to the shops for a 21st birthday present this afternoon. So it's not all bad. And of course I'll be back curlew - I can imagine you drumming your fingers at your desk! See you later.

I think people should be encouraged to eat the rda for vitamin A during measles outbreaks, and at all other times, as part of a balanced diet. A healthy diet is just that, a diet which helps keeps you healthy. There's already quite a lot of publicity for this, perhaps you've missed it thanks to your monomania on vitamin A and measles.

I also think that if you can't or won't substantiate your MMR slurs, you should keep them to yourself.

1.So what dosage do you need? 2.Given that vitamin A deficiency is very rare in well nourished children, does measles deplete the stocks of vitamin A in a well nourished child enough to make them more likely to suffer complications? 3.If so is there enough vitamin A in a multi vitamin pill to make any difference?

And I'd add 4. Given that most people buy multivitamins, take them for a week and then leave them in their cupboard till they go out of date, is advising vitamin supplements an effective way of combating an outbreak?

Assuming that you have done all the tests, proved that maintaining vitamin A-levels is an effective way of combatting measles, and worked out a way of ensuring that nobody receives an overdose, you still have to get the supplements into the people.

I'd also imagine that much as there are MMR sceptics, there are many people who would be very unhappy about being told to take a daily pill by the government.

So to summarise
The general population should have their children immunised.
And if they were to get measles, give them extra vit a during that time.

Study of measles in New York City

This is further to a conversation with Grimma about why there's a lack of interest in Vit A studies in developed countries

This is about Vit A deficiency in a developed country (US)

It's hard to find studies on Vit A in developed countries - one study above says interest in Vit A as an "anti-infective" vitamin waned when other drugs became manufacturable.

There's masses out there on Vit A and the immune system, and I'd like to thank you Curlew for pushing me to find this material along with so much more - it's confirmed my view. These are the only three I can find in 15 minutes which seem relevant to the sorts of questions you've been asking.

There's another one on subclinical presentation of VAD which can still cause problems. I'll link as soon as I can. In the meantime I'd like to ask Jo some questions.

They are in regard to your comments about a RDA and a balanced diet.

Do you think everyone consumes the RDA of vitamins?

Do you think that none of the serious complications and hospitalisations which we were warned about during the Swansea outbreak were caused or exacerbated by depletion or deficiency of Vitamin A?

If the answer is none, can you tell me why or can you link to a study explaining why none of these complications or hospitalisations were linked to Vit A depletion or deficiency?

Do you believe that measles causes Vitamin A to be depleted in well-nourished or apparently well nourished children and adults?

Do you believe that no one in the UK belongs to the list I quoted above of groups which could be at risk of Vitamin A deficiency?

I would like to ask this question of Merrymouse.

Do you think that the difficulty of encouraging people to take a vitamin supplement is insurmountable? If yes, can you explain why?

Do you think the option of offering vitamin supplementation to people queuing for vaccination is untenable? If so, why?

Do you think that publicity relating to one intervention (MMR) will be successful while the same type of publicity relating to another intervention (Vit a supplementation) will be a failure? If so, can you explain why?

Thanks. :)

Jo: also think that if you can't or won't substantiate your MMR slurs, you should keep them to yourself.

1. I said I would answer any questions you like on this - on another thread. You chose not to start one.
2. If you want to silence people who disagree with you, be brave, come right out and say "I want to silence people who disagree with me" - just so we're all clear.

Out for the day tomorrow. I understand people are busy when it comes to all those questions - it took me a long time today to get back on. But am interested in the replies.

Happy Sunday :)

Here it is, the one about subclinical presentation

Just looked this morning and it doesn't look like much, does it? However we've got to put it together with what we know. The beneficial effects of VA supplementation on measles in developing countries are well known, unquestionable. The role of measles in depleting VA is well known, unquestionable. The existence of groups (such as mentioned above) vulnerable to VAD is unquestionable. The fear of severe complications is unquestionable (and so strong it leads to an enormous push for a zero-benefit-all-risk intervention for 90-95 pc of children (2nd/3rd/extra MMR)). The possibiity of overdosing is low and can be warned against. One can get along quite nicely with VAD without really noticing - but it can still affect the eyes and respiratory organs (the big measles worries).

I think that's a pretty good case. What's wrong with it? How can it be such a bad case that it's worse than an intervention that has zero benefit for 90-95 per cent of children?

1. you would need to show that vitamin supplements were so effective that they made vaccination unnecessary.

2. people find it difficult to take pills on a daily basis, whether that is for contraception, long term illness, vitamins or finishing a course of antibiotics.

From Wikipedia - summarised - nearly 45000 children under the age of 6 had vitamin overdoses - including 3 deaths. vitamin poisoning - if you want to see really bad vit A poisoning, read about Scott's expedition to the Antarctic

But to summarise Bubbleyummy, crumbled walnuts and others your take home message is:

• don't vaccinate with MMR
• treat measles with vitamin A

if I'm wrong, please correct me

My opinion - you're jeapodising children's health to push an anti vaccine agenda

crum, you seem to have mistaken me for a specialist on vitamin A and measles. If you've got detailed questions, why don't you buy a book, or speak to a researcher in the field? I still don't understand why you think vitamin A is only an issue with respect to measles.

Why do you think I'm trying to silence you? you seem to be lashing out.

Yes, coorong, you're wrong. Where have I said 'don't vaccinate'? I'm not pushing any anti-vaccine message and, as far as I can see, walnuts is just talking about how Vitamin A could be beneficial even in developed countries.

How is that jeopardising children's health?

the "second MMR is useless" message is endangering lives. If you look at outbreaks, only a ever so tiny number of people have had their 2xMMRs, most are unvaccinated, some have had 1xMMR. We are not going to stop measles outbreaks unless most folk have had 2xMMR. We are not going to stop them with vitamin A either and measles doesn't suddenly become "benign" when a child gets a mega dose.

I think she was making the point that it is useless for 90/95% of the population because they're already immune from the first one so the second one is unnecessary for them.

Funny how things can be twisted when people are trying to find an 'anti-vax' stance.