Apparently children who have had good nutrition would just 'shrug it off' if they contracted measles. Why don't they say that in the UK?

[bumbleymummy]

Article is here discussing the impact that poor nutrition has on children in developing countries.

Considering that the majority of children in the UK have no problem with good nutrition (fruit shoots and Greggs aside ) why aren't parents being reassured rather than terrified into having their children vaccinated with images of coffins plastered over the promotional material?

What I can't find is research about the impact of vitamin A supplements on children with measles in the developed world.

My guess is that we don't have evidence supporting the use of vitamin A in developed countries because we simply don't have enough measles cases on a regular basis to do a proper trial - in a sense therefore, hopefully we never will. I've been searching using Google scholar rather than plain google, and all the trials I've found are in the third world.

My question would be, is there any downside at all to short-term vitamin A supplementation? If not then TBH I'd have thought it was worth trying. I suppose the NHS has to be careful about trying to adhere to evidence-based advice, but seems like something the bloody media might float.

There are downsides to overdosing, and they are easily findable Grimma. I just read a whole page

It would be interesting to do a study of Vit A deficicency, that would certainly be possible Grimma.

Catherina -OK so getting on for months ago there was something tucked away on the BBC but hardly on the scale we saw about Swansea. To be fair, a google search on 'measles outbreak in Lothian' for its second hit brought up a report from the NorthEdinburgh news from five days ago about this, but that is not national coverage. The first hit is information about Lothian from 2008/9.

Bemoaning the lack of vit A info in the media is like complaining that there is so little info on how to heal a broken bone, while media are "briefed" to report only on gritting during the Winter snow and ice.

I don't agree. There is no reason why you can't have both. Bemoan that the Local Authority hasn't been out gritting and hence people are falling and breaking bones, fine. But you don't then say but if you do break a bone, well tough, ignore it, if the authorities had gritted you wouldn't have done. You tell them to go to A&E and get it strapped up.

So if you want to try to avoid measles, go for the vaccine. If you do get it, Vitamin A has been shown to be beneficial in helping to prevent secondary infections. But we aren't getting this second strand. We are stopping at 'the authorities ought to be out gritting' level. Or in this case - parents ought to see that their children have the MMR. (If they still get measles, silence, or 'measles like', because by definition vaccines always work.)

There are downsides to overdosing

ok, so that is a reason for caution in recommending vitamin A as a treatment to children who aren't deficient...

CatherineM: I'm not sure we are assumed to be feckless, but I think there's a certain loss of control feared. I like to assume good intentions at public health authority level but highly misguided, and misled by experts who very often have links with profitable organisations. I should think there's a fear that if people think we can nip out for a Boots multi vit (price 5p a unit) we might listen to them less about vaccination. And yes agree with your last bit - a belief that some/many people are unable to make informed choices about their children's health.

Grimma: you are not going to overdose on a daily multivitamin during a measles outbreak. I do think that's a rather scare-mongering suggestion. And after all they could always put coffins on a leaflet explaining the dangers of an overdose :)
Don't forget they do recommend a course of action with NO benefit (to at least 90 pc of children) and risk of extreme damage - that is a second (or third) dose of MMR.

Grimma: you are not going to overdose on a daily multivitamin during a measles outbreak. I do think that's a rather scare-mongering suggestion
I didn't suggest that a daily multivitamin would cause an overdose . Is a daily multivitamin an effective dose to treat measles though?

LaVolcan - we also did not see measles reports on the same scale as Swansea anywhere else AND the whole country is now doing an MMR catch up campaign.

It is undesirable to catch measles. It is FAR more dangerous to catch measles than to get the MMR. I don't give a toss whether people supplement vitamin A or not (although it is possible to overdose), but I do think it is unwise to leave one's child unprotected against measles.

Grimma: much higher doses are sometimes used in hospitals as a treatment for severe measles. But in a regular person a daily dose of Vit A would help to maintain levels against depletion during measles. Isn't that obvious? Am I missing something?

It is FAR more dangerous to catch measles than to get the MMR.

Well that's something we don't know. Every time someone says their child was damaged they are dismissed as hysterical/irrational/conspiracy theorist/over-involved/too stupid to know their own child - and so the damage or potential damage isn't counted.

If you're concerned about severe complications you should give a toss about Vitamin A supplementation, otherwise people might think some pro-vaccinators don't give a toss about severe measles complications. And that would never do.

How does 'knowing your own child' allow you to determine an illness following MMR was caused by the MMR?

Hello Jo I think your question is a pointless distraction

But in a regular person a daily dose of Vit A would help to maintain levels against depletion during measles. Am I missing something?
I would be inclined to agree it probably would do no harm and might do some good.

The NHS leaflet I linked to does say 'Vitamin A supplements have been shown in some studies to help prevent some of the serious complications arising from a measles infection' and 'You may wish to ask your GP about whether your child would benefit from taking vitamin A supplements.' - so they do point parents in the direction of it. I don't know why they don't make a general recommendation to supplement - given that would be easy (and cheaper for the NHS) than asking GP maybe there is some reason or maybe its just that the evidence isn't firm enough.

because vitamins, especially vitamin A can be overdosed, so you need to be careful with any public health recommendation regarding vitamin A supplementation.

I think your lack of answer reveals more than you intended.

II agree with most of your post Grimma. Though I would say that the NHS information is dismissive of Vit A. "It is not clear how they help", it says. Given that Vit A sometimes used in hospitals for this, given that there are thousands of studies on this, given that it's recommended by the WHO, it's dismissed by the NHS as a sort of possibly untested meh maverick woo thing.

Yeah, that's what I was trying to suggest earlier ... thing is, once there is vague information on the internet, perhaps the NHS does need to come up with some guidelines on dosage (during an outbreak at low dose, higher after infection?) because there may be some risk now that while many parents do nothing, and some give RDA, some may go overboard.

(last post in response to Catherine)

"It is not clear how they help", it says
Is that inaccurate? Seems fair enough - that there's studies showing it helps but that we don't (yet) know the mechanism. I don't read that as being dismissive.

Jo - start another thread and I'll answer you. Caterina introduced the claim - not me. I'm more interested in nutrition and measles - I'm not going to be distracted. No problem with giving you an answer, in fact I could probably bore you half to death - just not here.

because vitamins, especially vitamin A can be overdosed, so you need to be careful with any public health recommendation regarding vitamin A supplementation.

Scare-mongering again and dealt with earlier. 1. A daily dose of Vit A in a multi-vit in a measles outbreak is not going to cause an overdose. 2. A course of action is recommended by the authorities of NO benefit and ALL risk to 90 pc of children (2nd MMR) 3. People could be cautioned about an overdose (possibly with coffins on leaflets :) )

All the fat-soluble vitamins can be overdosed. That is why EDUCATION is needed, not denial.

I think it is inaccurate, yes.

That is why EDUCATION is needed, not denial.

I have no idea what this means.

EDUCATION about Vit A and measles would be terrific but we haven't seen a lot of it - that's what I'm saying. I suppose we agree on that but I can't say for sure - your last post is rather a mystery to me.

Maybe you could start by explaining why a daily dose of Vit A in a multivitamin would be dangerous during a measles outbreak? I'm right here though, I wouldn't worry about the shouting.

I am assuming- but I don't know, obviously - that the vitamin A dosage necessary to treat vitamin deficient children in much higher than that in a normal multi vitamin. And vitamin A is one that the body retains- it isn't peed away like water soluble ones. And now Big Pharma is in the mega vitamin business who knows what might happen ....