Apparently children who have had good nutrition would just 'shrug it off' if they contracted measles. Why don't they say that in the UK?

[bumbleymummy]

Article is here discussing the impact that poor nutrition has on children in developing countries.

Considering that the majority of children in the UK have no problem with good nutrition (fruit shoots and Greggs aside ) why aren't parents being reassured rather than terrified into having their children vaccinated with images of coffins plastered over the promotional material?

Oh I see, excuse me, your post read like a fact and I found it misleading. There won't be any published papers explaining why Vit A is not automatically recommended. I have no link for that "fact" but I am certain of it.

There are thousands of studies on measles and Vitamin A, I'm sorry I can't trawl through them, I just read one thinking it was about children in Australia and found it was about children in Tanzania. Perhaps someone who wants to disprove the point will look harder :) I suppose I could look for references quoted by Who. Sigh.

Look what I found on my netsurfing (can you tell I've got a day off)

Dr David Miller, Deputy Director of the Epidemiological Research Laboratory in Colindale, Middlesex, stated in 1964

?In this country at least, measles is now usually regarded as a minor childhood illness through which we all must pass rather than as a public health problem.?4

Measles virus grows in the cells that line the back of the throat and lungs. Vitamin A is essential for the maintenance of this lining and others throughout the body. Vitamin A deficiency is a recognised risk factor for severe measles and since 1987 the WHO and UNICEF have recommended vitamin A treatment of children with measles; two doses of 200 000 IU for children over one year and 100 000 IU for infants, was found to reduce measles mortality by 62% (14) in poorer countries. Measles can also lower serum concentrations of vitamin A in well nourished children to less than those observed in non-infected malnourished children. When a child with marginal vitamin A stores gets measles, available vitamin A is quickly used up ? reducing the ability to resist secondary infections or their consequences, or both. (15)

These are the references

14 Sudfeld CR, Navar AM, Halsey NA.Effectiveness of measles vaccination and vitamin A treatment.
Int J Epidemiol. 2010 Apr;39 Suppl 1:i48-55. Review. www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2845860/pdf/dyq021.pdf
15 Barclay AJ, Foster A, Sommer A. Vitamin A supplements and mortality related to measles: a randomised clinical trial. Br Med J (Clin Res Ed). 1987 Jan 31;294(6567):294-6. www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1245303/pdf/bmjcred00005-0036.pdf

When a child with marginal vitamin A stores gets measles, available vitamin A is quickly used up ? reducing the ability to resist secondary infections or their consequences, or both. (15)

Gosh, Crumbled - that's almost saying that a well-nourished child will shake off measles more easily!

It is obvious that vitamin A is vital for malnourished children generally. It has a particular impact on eye health- measles or no measles and is estimated to reduce measles deaths by 50% in the developing world. What I can't find is research about the impact of vitamin A supplements on children with measles in the developed world.

By George - I think we've got it!

?In this country at least, measles is now usually regarded as a minor childhood illness through which we all must pass rather than as a public health problem.?4

ps this was four years before a vaccination was introduced

So do vitamin A supplements help children in the developed world not to get measles complications or not? We know that is does in mal nourished children....

The key word is "usually".

Obviously most children "shake off" measles. Unfortunately some don't. And you can't tell which sort of child you have until too late.

But why isn't there a two pronged approach? Have the vaccine, but if you do get measles, (which can happen with the vaccine), then up your vitamin A intake.

I don't recall any such advise being given in South Wales recently.

Curlew: ok it's nice that you are withdrawing the assertion that
it would have no impact on the level of complications in the developed world
That's great.

Things we do know.
Millions of people are malnourished in the UK.
Deficiency of Vitamin A can lead to severe measles complications.
Measles depletes Vitamin A in well-nourished children.
A well-nourished child can suffer Vitamin A depletion during measles infection.

Depletion means using up the Vitamin A leading to a possible deficiency.
There are well-nourished and malnourished children in the UK.
Well-nourished and malnourished children in the UK can get measles.
Well-nourished and malnourished children in the UK can suffer Vitamin A depletion during measles infection.

Now let's go back to:
Deficiency of Vitamin A can lead to severe measles complications.

A normal (and logical) inference from all these statements would be:
Well-nourished and malnourished children in the UK are at risk of severe complications from measles caused by Vitamin A depletion and deficiency.

And a normal response to that inference would be:
It would be helpful to recommend a multivitamin during measles outbreaks.

Perhaps somebody has taken that inference and used it as a hypothesis in a study. Until then, I see no problem with making that inference. And I think the response to that clear inference would be the responsible approach by any health authority concerned about severe complications.

"Curlew: ok it's nice that you are withdrawing the assertion that
it would have no impact on the level of complications in the developed world"

I'm not withdrawing it. That is what everything I have read so far suggests. However, there is a query. I am asking if anyone knows the answer to that query. If the answer, supported by evidence suggests that my "assertion" is wrong, then I will withdraw it. As I said earlier, that is how science works.

Well we can just reduce it to your own firm belief and opinion then. Let's take those inverted commas away from the word assertion.

It's not what everything you've read so far suggests, not if you've read the quote from the WHO and the link from Tabitha. Is there something you don't understand about them? I explained it pretty clearly I thought, supported by evidence Oh well.

So what is the reason for vitamin A not being prescribed for children in the developed world? There must be a stated reason- even if it's a crap reason. What is it? Why in the developing world but not the developed? The case for vitamin a being of benefit for children in the developing world is made.

I don't know Curlew? What do you think? Could it be that the people who put coffins on leaflets think it might undermine their message if they say "actually you could pop down to Boots for a multivit and it would probably help". I wonder.

I mean, what's the reason for the massive scare-mongering surrounding Swansea anyway? I can't imagine that every health correspondent and newspaper decided all at once, in a lightbulb moment, that after weeks and months of minor skirmishes with measles in various bits of the UK, this was The Big One. They were briefed (yes, that is the way it works). We had people saying that it was going to affect 2-3 million children, that private schools would be like dry brush in front of a wildfire, we had people even blaming parents who told newspapers about their child's reaction to MMR many years ago. We had mystery, confusion, and then when clear figures came out about lab confirmations of cases, were we reassured? You know we weren't Curlew.

This was weird. There were other outbreaks elsewhere but they didn't make the news.

the vitamin A is such an attempt at side tracking. Vitamin A helps kids in developing countries, in cutting the measles death risk from 8% to 2% (that is still 1 in 50). First of all, kids in the UK have a much lower risk of being vitamin A deficient and second of all, they have access to the MMR, which significantly reduces their risk of ever catching measles in the first place. Bemoaning the lack of vit A info in the media is like complaining that there is so little info on how to heal a broken bone, while media are "briefed" to report only on gritting during the Winter snow and ice.

LaVolcan - I have had two letters from NHS Lothian to bring my son in for his MMRs due to fewer than 40 measles cases in a 100 mile radius.

there has been a lot of general reporting about measles in the past months www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-22277186

Caterian, I completely disagree. It's not side-tracking when it's a known treatment to prevent severe complications of measles. Now why, if they are concerned about severe complications in a measles outbreak (as they say they are) are pro-vaccinators keen to downplay its benefits? Your analogy is inappropriate. It's irresponsible not to recommend a Vitamin A or multi-vit supplement. You do know that even obese or well fed people can suffer vitamin deficiencies don't you?

"Deficiency of Vitamin A can lead to severe measles complications.
Measles depletes Vitamin A in well-nourished children.
A well-nourished child can suffer Vitamin A depletion during measles infection.
Depletion means using up the Vitamin A leading to a possible deficiency.
There are well-nourished and malnourished children in the UK.
Well-nourished and malnourished children in the UK can get measles.
Well-nourished and malnourished children in the UK can suffer Vitamin A depletion during measles infection."

Which of these statements would you disagree with Caterina?

In the recent outbreak in Swansea, we had endless scaremongering and then eventually, we had ONE death that could tenuously be linked to measles. But where were the headlines saying, oh, good, measles outbreak, and everyone recovered? Nowhere, because that does not tie in with the MMR dogma. When I had measles (as a not very well-nourished) child, like all my friends, I recovered without any fuss. Yes, measles is a problem in countries where children are mal-nourished, but they are vulnerable for that reason. Here, it is just hysteria.

Sorry, forgot to add - the Vit A thing has been known for ages - I discussed this with DH 16 years ago when first DC born. But the medical establishment does not publicise it to parents because assumes we are are all feckless and not capable of making informed choices on behalf or our DC.

Interestingly, Vit D also seems to play a role in fighting off secondary complications of measles, and there's a known Vit D deficiency here. It's talked about a lot.