I'm worried about the MMR - reassurance needed

[sandradee]

My son is just about to have his MMR vaccine (DH is with him at the surgery - I'm not there since I am at work). I know that it's the right thing to do in terms of protection against measles and also for people who can't have the vaccine since I know it's a really nasty disease and can be fatal.

I'm also not worred about the effects that it might have in terms of autism since I've read that this was actually made up to rubbish the MMR vaccine byt a Dr who was developing his own MMR vaccine.

What I am woried about are the other effects that the vaccine might have - can it go wrong? What are the risks. It's such a double edged sword. What does anyone think?

poor you you have been a bit confused by a lot of rubbish havent you? \link{http://www.mmrthefacts.nhs.uk/\MMR the facts}
autism is a genetic condition you are either predisposed to it or not.
Andrew Wakefield was not developing a vaccine of his own however the critisism of his studies came from the study numbers which were very small and to that respect unreliable for a definative answer or link.
There is no evidence to suggest that MMR causes autism, like I said before autisim is gentic.
However the national review body (cochrane) said that the saftey of MMR had not been fully re-searched and one of the posters recently discovered some re-search that suggested 5% of children who have MMR will develop autism. there is no such comparable study for children who have not.
The side effect of measles mumps and rhubella include brain injury sepsis and menigitis. This is a clear fact.
There have been some very interesting discussion recently about the MMR have a look in the archives.
The considerations are not just about autism but about the stress that three jags can put on the immune system.
IMO the MMR is generally considered to be safe and statistically it is less likely to cause anywhere near the damage that one of the three diseases could.
However some posters on this site have children who are autisitc (in their opinion) as a result of vaccines, not just specifically the MMR. Living with either condition is heart breaking.
One outcome is thoretical (at the minute)
The other outcome is fact.

It is ahard task but I strongly belive in informed choice. Be aware of propaganda on both sides.
Look at the facts.

HTH

Good post chapsmum. Personally I think the MMR is extremely safe and the media has been scaremongering...

Thanks - I will have a look at the reviews etc. I do know it's the right thing to do but the Internet especially can throw up a lot of rubbish.

Fuuny, I have only seen media reports damning Wakefield and an organised witch hunt against him. That is why Sandradee thinks that the autism link was made up by a doctor who was developing his own MMR vaccine, which is lie put about by a particular journalist and spun by the rest of the media. Yes, there is a lot of rubbish on both sides. I don't agree necessarily that you are either predisposed to autism or not chapsmum, though you are generally very fair on the subject. But yes, MMR is probably only dangerous to a small amount of children who have other risk factors, like gut inflammation and family history of auto immune disorders.

Sorry if I have not explained what I ment by the term predisposed ruty.
I dont mean there are measurable landmarks that we can see as a predetermination. But some children due to thier genetic make up will be more prone to reacting to for example heavy metals and developing autism because of it.
Does that make more sence.
A genetic condition triggered by environmental factors?

possible chapsmum. There is no autism on either side of our families at all, and though ds is not autistic he was at risk from certain areas of developing it. we were told by a highly specialized doctor in the field [totally unconnected to Wakefield] to keep him off dairy and gluten to avoid autism because of his gut inflammation. So if that makes him predisposed then yes. But it doesn't mean autism is unavoidable - i think in many cases, though not all, it is.

avoidable, i mean!

Hope you find the info out there useful and reassuring - it is horrible worrying about the mmr and I think almost every parent out there does worry about it, both those who do and don’t go for it.
When mine had it I had sleepless nights before and after worrying - she is fine. Funnily enough, the only jab that I didn’t worry about and just went along rather casually, was the hib booster and sure enough, the next day she was a very ill little girl with mega temp and ended up calling the GP out in middle of the night as she was so poorly. She was fine after a few days but did panic us.

Good luck with the decision process, it is hard to weigh it all up as carefully and objectively as possible and I sometimes wonder if the internet provides us with too much access to information and opinions that seem to cloud and confuse rather than add insight and clarity.

Just to add that although the internet can be a fabulous research resource, it must be used with care when researching anything medical - remember that the internet is not edited or controlled in any way at all and so you can find all sorts of baseless info that will scare you half to death ( completely unnecessarily, half the time) - A friend was researching adult acne and ended up half hysterical because she found a link on some site between adult acne and HIV - she was absolutely fine, of course, but it is a good example of how ridiculous some of the stuff can be - so proceed with caution, visit recommended websites and don't believe everything you read!
With regards to the MMR - I am in exactly the same spot - my DS is due his shot, and although he will be getting it, I wake up a night a bit panicked anyway - doesn't change the decision, but still .... the joys of parental decisions, heh?

Hi sandradee. Just thought to type a quick note. My DH and I are both health professionals and we found it a difficult decision despite the fact I've made a career out of research! We did eventually decide to go for it and DS is just fine. Like many things in the media, the trial linking autism with the MMR was blown out of all proportion. Here's a good link to have a look at: \link{http://www.sciencemuseum.org.uk/antenna/mmr/cip2/index.asp\MMR}

Something similar happened recently with the alcohol in pregnancy issue - it depends on what the media pick up and what they think will sell papers.

Regardless of what you decide however I just wanted to ask you to please have some sort of vaccination - the single shots are widely available. The risks of complications from measles, mumps and rubella are potentially very serious as I'm sure you're aware and can in some cases cause death. Also, in order to prevent an epidemic, 9 out of 10 children need to be vaccinated. I think that sometimes this decision is approached as an individual issue - "how will this affect my child?" Unfortunately, it's not a personal issue, all our children are at risk if any more than one in ten parents decides not to vaccinate.

Good luck with your decision :)

Wakefield's vaccine (actually not his, the patent application was from the Royal Free I think), was to develop a product to treat children with autistic enterocolitis. Although many people have argued forever about the role of MMR in triggering autism, I don't think anyone has ever disagreed that the subset of autistic children that Wakefield described had a novel (and serious) bowel disorder- which has been named autistic enterocolitis- the factor causing it is contentious from what I understand rather than its condition. I don't think its that bad of him to want to treat it. The numbers of children with the condition are probably small- between 5- 20% of the autistic population, I doubt anyone would have made much money from the vaccine if it had been developed (which it hasn't), it's not a very large potential market. Luckily Wakefield does still treat autistic children with the condition, unfortunately he is the States. Some members of the original team still treat affected children here.

Brian Deer's website has a copy of the original patent application on there, on reading it is obvious that the potential vaccines main aim was to treat the condition, although other potential uses were recorded. I emailed Brian Deer to ask why he had portrayed it as being a potential rival to the MMR when it was obvious to anyone reading the application that that was not the case, He never replied. He does list some comments he has received, - the last one is interesting- a mother of an autistic child disagrees with him, she was fairly well known as someone who linked autism with vaccines in some children. His note following the message notes with some satisfaction that she has since died in a car crash. Nice man Brian Deer, nice man.

"Unfortunately, it's not a personal issue, all our children are at risk if any more than one in ten parents decides not to vaccinate. "

so who is responsible for picking up the pieces when it does go wrong?

Just interested.

Oh God not the selfish thing again.

PARP

JimJamskeepingoffvaxthreads

oh no you're not

you always seem to put it better than I do, jimjams x
hope you are enjoying a large one

I take that back .. just saw the post you responded to .. parp

I could link to the film, in fact I think it will - because I think it might explain, why, if you know your child is over 100 times more likely than little Johnn y down the road, you might think twice about any potential trigger. Potential triggers we;ve avoided include mercury, gluten, antibiotics. Postponing/avoiding vacinations is just another thing on the list.

\link{http://www.autismspeaks.org/sponsoredevents/autism_every_day.php\is it really so selfish to want to avoid "autism every day"} For some people this isn't some silly remote media scare, it is their every day life. I spent this afternoon with a boy who had massive seizures within 24 hours of receiving his MMR. He is severely autistic and his paediatrician has said that he thinks his autism was MMR triggered. Now I must emphasise that even people who think that MMR can trigger autism think it only does so in very very very small numbers. The MMR is safe for the vast majority of children. However if this is already your life, and therefore you know that your subsequent children are high risk of developing the same condition, can you really be accused of being selfish for treading just a little bit carefully?

ity's official- I;m incoherent- 100 times more likely to develop autism I mean.

Anyway before dishing out the selfish line watch the film.

Sorry that;s not very reassuring is it? Went off the original thread Well the reassurance is that even the people who think MMR can trigger autism think the numbers involved are tiny. It's a cliche but for people without other risk factors crossing the road is going to be more dangerous. There are a few cases of regression following single measles as well, so no guarantee there. And I'm assuming you want to protect against measles, so with a normal healthy child then MMR is almost certainly going to be safe. The autism linked reactions occur shortly after the jab and are quite obvious (think seizures) I have heard of other unpleasant side effects, but nothing lasting more than a few days. If you hadn't vaccinated at all you would only have worried about the diseases. Even I'll give some sort of measles jab to ds2 and ds3 if they dont catch measles by puberty (whereas I would never give them a thimerosal containing jab for example), as measles can have nasty complications.

Sorry I only skimmed your first post and missed the point of it!

Sandradee - hope all went well are your son is fine. :)

Hope you don't mind if I just hijack this a bit - was going to post a 'worried about MMR' thread tonight. ds was 1 last week and I'm dithering big time on this. He should have had it at his 12 month paed check (not in UK) but I put it off. He is active and healthy and I currently have no concerns about his development (he's pointing, has said a word, doing some imitating etc) BUT I have had isolated mild attacks of psoriasis and IBS (which I believe are classed as auto-immune??) in the past – both in the same year and seemed to occur in response to a very stressful life situation, but the psoriasis took a while to clear up. Does this actually count as 'autoimmunity in the family', i.e. a potential risk factor related to MMR? Also, would it be obvious if he had gut problems, or can things like dropping off the centiles on weight (admittedly only from the 25th, and he's 3rd centile for height!) and gassiness be indicators? He's had the DTP (6 in 1 over here) and Prevenar with virtually no reaction, and apart from colds has never been ill. My paed says singles simply do not exist over here, not even if we went private.
Any advice? Sorry if this sounds over-anxious, but I need to make up my mind on this, and am going round in circles alone.

and your son is fine. Sorry

foundintranslation- I can only say what I would do in your situation.

Yes I would take the factors you describe as potential risk factors. If I was easily able to access singles then I would go with singles leaving, well actually probably a year apart, but that is the most extreme recommendation. If I wasn't able to access singles and I was scared of measles mumps and rubella (because that's a whole different debate) then I would give MMR. But I would supplement with vitamin A (from nordic naturals cod liver oil, tsp a day) and with a general multivit a few weeks before during and after vaccination.

If I was going to be visiting the UK or somewhere else that had singles then I would prob postpone until then, if not then I would do the above, without too many worries. As you know I do believe the MMR can trigger autism in a small number of cases, but the numbers- even in those with risk factors- are very small.

Has to be cod liver oil btw, not normal fish oils.....

Thanks JJ. :)
As it happens I am quite scared of measles, not so much of mumps (well I am a bit, seeing as ds is a boy) or rubella. My preferred route would definitely be singles - off to do some research now about their actual availability. dh, however, is very pro MMR. I can see some discussions coming on in the FIT household.
Out of interest, what do the vitamins do?

Can anyone tell me what the MMR schedule in the UK is? Just been reading up on the schedule here (Germany), and one page I've found says that 2 doses of MMR are given (at 12 months) 4 weeks apart! Surely not?