I'm worried about the MMR - reassurance needed

[sandradee]

My son is just about to have his MMR vaccine (DH is with him at the surgery - I'm not there since I am at work). I know that it's the right thing to do in terms of protection against measles and also for people who can't have the vaccine since I know it's a really nasty disease and can be fatal.

I'm also not worred about the effects that it might have in terms of autism since I've read that this was actually made up to rubbish the MMR vaccine byt a Dr who was developing his own MMR vaccine.

What I am woried about are the other effects that the vaccine might have - can it go wrong? What are the risks. It's such a double edged sword. What does anyone think?

IN a healthy child the vitamins/minerlas (I should have said give a multivit/mineral) won't make much difference, but autistic children's mineral levels are all over the place. They often have problems with some vitamin levels. Vitamin A is the best treatment for measles- has been shown to prevent measles complications, and a subset of autistic children appear to be low in vitamin A.

Usually one dose of MMR would be given post 12 months. If MMR is given before 12 months (say because of an epidemic) then it would be common to give another dose shortly afterwards as the efficacy of MMR given beofre 12 months is lower.

How close are you to France? Singles there if MMR was something that worried you sufficiently.

JJ
Not very close sadly. Switzerland's not far.

I'm going to speak to the paed again and see if he can't order them in. Seeing as ds is (also) British, I could, theoretically, take him to the UK to have singles (whether on the NHS or not)?

On the vits/mins - if ds does turn out to be vulnerable, they would possibly reduce/cushion (eliminate?) any adverse effect, did I get that right?

I think he could have the MMR and be just fine, especially as I'm not 'particularly' auto-immune. It's just there is an element of gamble in it for me, and it's not one I'm that happy taking.

Thanks again btw :) I can stop dithering and have a plan of action now!

Not on the NHS- it would have to be in a private clinic. But they are easy to get in the UK.

Vitamin A is a conventional treatment for measles, really nothing contentious there, so it would make sense to give it before a live measles jab. In terms of vitamin/mineral problems in autistic children, it's complicated because there are different subgroups. Richard Lathes book "autism, brain and environment" describes the different findings to date, but a general mulitvit/mineral would just mean that if your child did have any deficiency that could potentially cause a problem then you would be supplementing to avoid that (bit like folic acid and neural tube defects), it wouldn't do any harm and may (or may not) give some extra protection.

Ah I see, folic acid analogy makes sense. Never knew that about Vit A being used to treat measles.

well it's been shown to reduce length of complications etc in vitamin A deficient children in developing countries. There was a small New Scientist report about it in ooh around 2002. Doesn't mean it would do anything in well fed western children, but given that a subset of autistic children are vitamin A deficient, and given that vitamin A suplementation is OK for short periods then it would be an easy thing to do. You shouldn't really supplement with vitamin A over long periods without medical supervision though.

is the vitamin A deficiency thought to be due to an absortion problem in the intestine jimjams? or is it a manufacory/liver storage problem. If absorbtion, are you talking about a standard vit a dose or higher than RDA for age..?

It's nonsensical to talk about it in general terms as children/adults with autism are a diverse group. Many metabolic pathways seem to be out, and you do have to read something like richard lathe's book to get a glimpse of the complexity of it.

In terms of vitamin A- a subset of autistics appear to have a family history of nightblindness. From a personal point of view supplemetation with vitamin A got rid of ds1's sideways eye stims completely. When he stopped having cod liver oil (impossible to get it into him) they cam back after about 4 months.

\link{http://www.whale.to/a/megson5.html\mary megson a peadiatrician} is the person to look up on vitamin A and autism.

once again jj thanks. TBH I would love to read richard lathes book. Is it widley avaliable or could ou perhaps email me with the datils, link etc.

[email protected]

You can get it from \link{http://www.jkp.com/catalogue/book.php/isbn/9781843104384\jessica kingsley}- this is the hardback version, not sure when the paperback is out- soon I would guess.

Having read it - it just reinforced how complicated autism is. There are so many different pathways that can go wrong. His basic idea is that you have genetic predispositions which can give rise to physiological dyspreguation- kicking in at a certain stage of development this might result in ASD. Metal toxicity probably plays a big role, probably along with other pollutants. .

thanks, will be ordering.

Have now found at least 1 paediatric practice in Germany that does singles.
Thanks again JJ.

sounds good for peace of mind foundintranslation.

happy reading chapsmum :o

I was very worried too and waited until dd was nearly 2.5 to get it done. She was actually very poorly with it around 10 days after the jab, for about 3 days, a raging fever, lethargic etc. Then just as quickly she was better again with no other ill effects. I still have huge doubts about it but I couldn't find somewhere to get singles that we could trust or afford so went for it as I thought the risks associated with measles were more frightening than the risks of the mmr. I hope your ds is ok.

martian I would take that a self limiting reaction like that as a good sign to be honest- at least you know the jab's worked and done something

Hi all

I've been reading all this with interest and do feel a lot more reassured. DS did have the jab since he had an appt with the dr first amd she said it was as good a time as any. DH was the one with him and if it had been me I might have hestiated and put it off for another time.

I did investigate the singe vaccines but it seems that the singles may not be as effective as the MMR. (not sure if what I read was a credible source)

I do agree that it is incredibly selfish not to vaccinate. I read that a boy who died recently from measles was not able to have the vaccine and was relying on the general population to protect him. It's cases like that which made me decide to do it since it's not only a parental responsibility but a social one.

I am terrified of DS getting measles and I do feel relieved now that its done. I did lie awake for sevreal nights before though worrying about it. So far (touch wood) he seems fine but I will make sure I keep a close eye on him for the next few weeks. If there are any ramifications of the vaccine I will be devastated but I will have done what I think is best as a parent.

I have a friend who is a paediatric intensive care nurse and she always tells me how awful measles is as a disease and how high the stats are for complications if your child gets it. She has told me of cases where the child has come in and has ended up with long term complications from measles - and in each case the child has not been vaccinated.

The dr did offer us for DS to have the MMR booster in a month's time - appaerntly the first vaccine is only 95% effective so they do the booster normally before the child goes to school at around 3 years of age to give the chance of complete immunity. I know a child at DS nursery who was vaccinated but had not had the booster - but got measles (not as badly though)

I think if you live in a high risk area (we do - se london) then Drs advise to have the booster sooner. We won't go fo a month's time but are considering possibly vaccinating again in around 6 months. I want to wait and see.

Thaks everyone for ther thoughts. If anyone has any advice on TB and the new meningitis one as well I'd be interested to hear what people think. Still not sure about these.

By the new meningitis one, do you mean Prevenar (against pneumococcal meningitis)?
ds had it and was fine, no side effects. I think it's definitely worth it. There is a MNer whose dd died of pneumococcal meningitis :( - it's a terrible disease.

Yes - is that what it's called?

I've just been reading the other thread on MMR (the one about the new evidence) and I'v started to panic again....

I HATE all this vaccination pressure. It's just so awful. I think of my dad's day - he had measles, mumps and chickenpox all one after the other and was fine. He also had whooping cough. But then again I know a lot of children died.

Has he reacted violently, had any seizures? If not, you should be fine.

sandradee - people who choose not to vaccinate do so because they don't want to damage their children, not because they're selfish and don't care about anyone else! The way I see it, vaccination carries a risk so the individual is important. Why should I risk my child's health and well being to protect someone elses?

I don't know where you get your info from, but singles are generally said to be more effective than MMR, not less, certainly for the measles component. My ds's immunologist confirmed this. I'm going to parp myself [and this thread I'm afraid] as we have been down the 'it is so selfish not to vaccinate] route so many times, when people don't know really what they are talking about in terms of the reasons behind people's decisions and the potential risk factors for different individuals. there are plenty of threads in archives discussing the 'selfish' accusation.

Thanks again everyone. I really don't want to offend anyone either. I do think its a personal choice and i do understand that there are risks involved - especially for some children.

Foundintranslation, so far he's been fine so I hope that is it with the MMR.

sorry to hijack but at what age do you have the prevenar jab? is this one of the ones added to the 2/3/4 month vaccinations recently?

Current MMR thread has reminded me to update this. Update might be of use to anyone in Germany wanting singles for their children.

After finding out that singles are available, went to see the other paed ati our practice (the one I'd seen before had told me singles don't exist in Germany, not even privately) prepared for a huge battle. She said 'oh, fine, no problem' and ds has his appt for single measles next week. We even get it on our insurance. She wasn't sure about how available a single mumps vaccine is, but we're thinking of delaying that one a few years anyway. I'm that two paeds working in one practice can give such completely different information, but quite relieved.