Andrew Wakefield speaks out

[babanouche]

Sorry if this has been done to death. I've never been to this part of MN before. This is a really interesting clip, worth watching to the very end. My LO is due MMR soon and I have my doubts now.

Previous to watching this I was sure he was a bad scientist. He says the measles outbreak in wales may be due to the vaccine not working. He also throws doubt on the people who approved the triple vaccine & challenges certain professionals to a televised public debate. Very thought provoking stuff.

People still believe this?

Apparently 1 in 6 children in the swansea area haven't ever had MMR compared with 1 in 10 elsewhere in Wales.

So how do I find out how many childrne with measles actually had the MMR?

Kewcumber

www.wales.nhs.uk/sitesplus/888/page/66389#unvacc

the numbers in the outbreak will be published later, since PHW still needs to gather the vaccination data (that is usually the case, see www.eurosurveillance.org/ViewArticle.aspx?ArticleId=20226 on the last big outbreak in Merseyside)

Well you go for it CatherinaJTV. Good luck!

From what I can understand, the Merck measles virus master seed was isolated and developed in 1960.

The Enders' Edmonston strain of measles virus was isolated in primary human kidney cell tissue culture from the blood of a child (Edmonston) in the early acute phase of measles. The virus (10 ml) was received by Merck from Dr. John Enders at the Children?s Hospital of Harvard Medical School in 1960. Further passages were performed at Merck to develop the Moraten (more attenuated Enders) strain that served as a pre-master seed from which the Master Seed was derived.

www.ema.europa.eu/docs/en_GB/document_library/EPAR_-_Scientific_Discussion/human/000604/WC500030167.pdf

Presumably if they were no longer using the original measles source, they would have to re do all their safety testing.

so 16.5% of children 2-18yrs in teh swansea area either either unvaccinated or undervaccinated.

since we all know that Wakefield and Walker did not really find measles virus in the guts of those kids anyway, the discussion over strains is almost futile...

I have scoured the media and can only find stories of children who have unvaccinated measles cases. Would love to find out how many were vaccinated. I suspect (but obviously can't yet prove) that it will make a nonsense of blaming this outbreak on the efficacy of the vaccine.

Why can;t paretns who didn;t vaccinate accept that there was a much higher risk their child could get measles? Its not rocket science to work that out is it? They have had perfectly reasonable reasons for taking that risk but surely they understood that was the risk.

Kewcumber, I don't know about outbreaks in the UK but there have been measles outbreaks in the US in highly vaccinated populations.

The issue with the outbreaks was more that they showed that the concept of herd immunity was flawed rather than that there were lots of vaccinated children catching measles. Less than 5% of the population were not immune to measles and therefore there should not have been an outbreak IYSWM.

Gustafson et al. [17] An outbreak of measles occurred among adolescents in Corpus Christi, Texas, in the spring of 1985, even though vaccination requirements for school attendance had been thoroughly enforced. Serum samples from 1806 students at two secondary schools were obtained eight days after the onset of the first case. Only 4.1 % of
these students (74 of 1806) lacked detectable antibody to measles according to enzyme- linked immunosorbent assay, and more than 99 % had records of vaccination with live measles vaccine...
After the survey, none of the 1732 seropositive students contracted
measles. Fourteen of 74 seronegative students, all of whom had been vaccinated, contracted measles. In addition, three seronegative students seroconverted without experiencing any symptoms. We conclude that outbreaks of measles can occur in secondary schools, even when more than 99 percent of the students have been vaccinated and more than 95 percent are immune?

www.ecomed.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/3-tomljenovic.pdf

I'm particularly interested in the swansea data as that is what wakefield is claiming that this outbreak might be due to effectiveness of the vaccine.

I'm prepared to accept this might be an issue if someone can prove it to me with some fairly basic data - I'm easily convinced with a few little facts. Not so convinced by the assertion of someone who has an interest in claiming it was the evil MMR wot dun it.

Sorry bEachcomber - I have started churning through that link but it seems to be about the risks of vaccinating. I would like to know how many children who have both MMR jabs contract measles in an epidemic (or even not in an epidemic I suppose) - if a massively smaller number of vaccinated children get measles than don't then I don't see how Wakefield can claim the MMR isn't effective

The herd immunity thing is a different issue (in my mind)

an outbreak in a school with 1806 pupils in which only 14 contracted measles is a testament to the huge efficiency of measles vaccination in my book. That is fewer than 1% of the students! In 1985, most kids will have had 1 measles containing vaccine, because the two shot policy in the US was not introduced until the 1989-91 outbreak, so you are looking at exactly the 95% efficiency that is published.

For medics, Dr is actually a courtesy title, not something conferred by a qualification. I'd be prepared to call him Dr if he had a PhD but he apparently does not have one.

Kewcumber - I asked PHW - they are collecting the numbers and will publish them soon.

I'd be very interested Cath - have family in that part of the world and went down last week. Many families ffeling a bit silly and guilty just now. Also notable that lots of people blaming everyone else - media/GP's/Wakefield/government.

I don't have any info about Swansea specifically with regards to vaccination status. I was just trying to answer your question about measles outbreaks in highly vaccinated populations.

As I said, we know that what Dr Wakefield suggests with regards to measles vaccine failure has already happened with the mumps element of the MMRII so it does certainly seem worth investigating if it has happened with measles.

A complaint has been filed against Merck by two of its employees for falsifying mumps vaccine efficacy test results. The complaint is quite long but it does explain that the virus seed changes and loses potency over time.

www.rescuepost.com/files/june-mumps-suit.pdf

The idea certainly bears thinking about although we cannot know what is happening in Wales without more info.

For heaven's sake, read the science. As a medical journalist, I did so and decided to have my daughter vaccinated at the height of the Wakefield MMR controversy. She is now a happy healthy teenager. Despite scientists from all over the world - Japan, Sweden, World Health Organisation scientists, USA, Australia, etc - trying to replicate Wakefield's "research", NONE could do so. And not all were funded by pharmaceutical companies, should that be an objection. Scientists actually wanted to know the truth. Wakefield was struck off the medical register in the UK and that is never done lightly and for no reason. Yet there are still those who slavishly follow him. Research done on the triple vaccine overwhelmingly shows it to be safe. And that's worldwide, too. Much is available on the internet. Read it.

Kewcumber, will surely post here - no parent should feel silly. With the media and private doctors blowing up Wakefield's made up claims it is no wonder that parents were confused. Not everyone reads medical literature like it was the Metro ;)

I was just trying to answer your question about measles outbreaks in highly vaccinated populations.

yupp, and when those happen, they turn out a pathetic 0.something% infected kids in the overall vaccinated population and anti-vaccine folk have to go back as far as 1985 to find them...

not exactly the same but
one of my friends has children damaged by an anti convulsion drug and the same thing has happened there really, big bucks versus small fry (people)
they really don't give a shit about your children, it's all far more complex

I have vaccinated and my dd has anti convulsion drugs btw I just do not agree with silencing people and stopping debate

Catherina, are you ignoring the fact that not all singles vaccines are imported from long distances? Or no further than other vaccines still included on the NHS schedule?

I agree it would be very useful to have figures showing incidence in vaccinated children. Considering under reporting in vaccinated children the figures may not be that accurate.

Medjourno, your comment about people not being struck of lightly may have had more weight behind it before walker-smith had his charge of misconduct dropped.

Based on my limited knowledge of the subject, I would say that he is being misleading at the following points in the video:

1.10
1.35
3.30
4.09
6.04
6.36
6.57
7.13
7.51
9.15
9.53
10.30
11.30

I gave up at 12 minutes

Bumbley, the web site doesn't tell us which vaccine is currently given though. Not saying that parents would be left in the dark, but a happy "it could be from France or India or Russia" sounds, um, not very reliable (but that is just me and if I was looking for a particular measles singles, I would call them and find out more).

The Merseyside numbers have been published. 12/359 laboratory confirmed cases had had 2x MMR. Most were un- or under-vaccinated. That is pretty typical.

CatherinaJTV do you mean to be so rude and call people names like 'anti vaccine' just because they disagree with you?

I quoted the measles outbreak I did because I happened to have been reading about it and therefore had a source at my fingertips. Excuse me for not looking up something that comes up to your standards

Disease outbreaks happen regularly in highly vaccinated populations, notably with pertussis and mumps. This isn't terribly controversial you know.