Andrew Wakefield speaks out

[babanouche]

Sorry if this has been done to death. I've never been to this part of MN before. This is a really interesting clip, worth watching to the very end. My LO is due MMR soon and I have my doubts now.

Previous to watching this I was sure he was a bad scientist. He says the measles outbreak in wales may be due to the vaccine not working. He also throws doubt on the people who approved the triple vaccine & challenges certain professionals to a televised public debate. Very thought provoking stuff.

I'm only finding the Merck vaccine in the US which uses the Edmondton strain. Rouvax uses the Schwartz strain.

X post.

What other impression so you think people will get from your comments Catherina?

Also, (for probably the fifth or sixth time now) Rouvax is manufactured by sanofi Pasteur - the French company who also manufacture Pediacel. Do you worry about Oediacel not being kept at the correct temperature when it's making its way to all the NHS GPs?

CatherianJTV could you please, out of respect for MNHQ, stop.

You are scaremongering about the methods and respectability of private clinics and that is unfair to parents who use them and MNHQ who are responsible for the content of this site. It is also based on pure speculation and a rather high opinion of your own personal views.

You have a blog about vaccination - use it to push your opinion.

Do you know he didn't only use US children? I think you'd better check before you make your accusations tbh.

She just says that the MMR is better - which it is - it protects against mumps, which isn't available as a single vaccine; and saves the need to be stuck with a needle 6 times to protect against 2 diseases (or 9 if mumps was available). That is 'better' in my opinion.

But you could also argue that having single vaccines at separate times, and therefore more spaced apart - is better. 3 jabs all in one go can be horrendous in terms of side effects. I spent 3 odd months having every jab under the sun for travel ourposes, as an adult. I felt permanently ill for 3 months while my immune system did its thing. For a tiny tot it must be awful, surely? And aren't all they available as a single, but this country refuses to buy/produce/license them?

I have grave doubts about MMR due to experience of family friend when I was a child, who was a GP. He was convinced that a jab he administered to a child was responsible for the development of its autism. I don't think he every got over his sense of guilt.

Amazed by the implicit trust in big pharma most people seem to have. And I don't get why '60's technology' is implicitly bad. Think that argument needs to be supported somewhat.

Sassh just seems to like to throw those types of phrases about and then disappear from the thread when she is questioned about them. I'm not sure why!

Look CatherinaJTV, if you really think that the clinic you linked to is importing dodgy vaccines and not respecting storage temperatures, I suggest you notify the relevant authorities ASAP and get it checked out. If your speculation holds any truth whatsoever, children could be seriously ill, if not killed. So, rather than scaremongering about your speculations on MN, I suggest you actually DO something.

Report these people. Get them investigated. Have them done for fraud (they say on their website that the vaccines they use are WHO approved, that they have a Medicines Health Regulatory Agency importation license and that they are imported and stored at temperatures between 2-8 C., to ensure that their effectiveness is maintained) - if you have reason to think that all of that is bullshit, report them.

Go on. Put your money where your mouth is, I double dare you.

Please do get back to us and let us know what happens.

Otherwise, please stop posting unfounded scaremongering opinionated crap on here and stick to doing it on your blog.

"He says the measles outbreak in wales may be due to the vaccine not working"

Surely even his supporters must find this in the extreme?

Don't you?

The only significant measles outbreak has so far occurred in a part of the country which is known to have a very low take up of MMR.

If the vaccine doesn't work why haven't there been any outbreaks in areas where take ups is high?

I would take with a pinch of salt anyone who accepts this statement just because Andrew Wakefield says it, the fact that he even says it makes his judgement suspect in my mind. Saying that it was the governments fault for not allowing single vaccines is a reasoned argument (even if you agree with why they didn't allow them) - trying to claim that the MMR just didn't work is what moves him for me into totally lacking credibility any longer.

Andrew Wakefield, or to give him his proper title, Andrew Wakefield (thank you Ben Goldacre for that quote) is not a doctor. He is no longer licensed to practice medicine because of his fraudulent activities and does not posses a PhD.

Did someone call him Dr Wakefield on the thread slug?

His latest claims are pure speculation and make me wonder about his mental health/personality.

Something is not quite right about him. And he is dangerous to anyone who listens to him.

He should have been arrested & thrown in prison for all the upset he has caused, a dangerous idiot who fooled so parents.

so many

Navada, I think the media are more guilty of scaremongering than AW. Much more convenient for them to make a scapegoat out of him though.

WaynettaSlobsMother
"I support dr Andrew Wakefield."

Ok, your comment just seemed a little out of the blue! :)

Actually he is called Dr Wakefield.

He is no longer licensed to practice in the UK following the GMC hearing. But he has a medical degree and is entitled to use the title Dr.

I know lots of slightly immature bloggers and journalists think it is great fun to refer to him as Mr Wakefield, but they are incorrect. The MMR controversy is a serious issue, it might be a good idea to resist the standard of the lowest common denominator. It doesn't add much to this discussion and seems rather sheeplike gloating.

Speaking of the GMC hearing I'm disappointed that no-one has anything to say about Isabella Thomas' statement, including what she said about Professor Walker-Smith's successful appeal and Justice Mitting's comments about the flawed GMC hearing.

Beachcomber - please don't put words into my mouth. I said that importing vaccines as a single clinic from far away overseas sources increases the risk of improper storage and there is one anecdote in the forum that supports this notion (not that large organisations don't manage to mess up the cold chain, I am just talking about increased risk, no intent implied).

After having looked at the paragraph I quoted from that website, citing Steve Walker all wrong and making untenable claims on their singles, I am considering to complain to the ASA (and would not be the first to complain about similar issues www.asa.org.uk/Rulings/Adjudications/2012/10/BabyJabs-Ltd/SHP_ADJ_204913.aspx ).

Anyway, back to more serious matters. Someone asked upthread what we think of Dr Wakefield's suggestion that there may be issues with the efficacy in MMR with regards to measles protection.

Well, certainly for anyone who knows anything much about vaccine science, his suggestion is scientifically plausible and should be taken seriously.

We know that there are issues with mumps vaccine efficacy and Merck themselves have said that the continued use and replication of a virus over many years plus the 'passaging' of the virus that are part of the production process, weaken the virus and can cause mutations. This then means that a vaccinated person is not immune to the wild virus that they will encounter in a natural setting.

Merck know that this has happened to their mumps strain which has been in use now for decades. I'm not aware of a scientific reason why it would be impossible for that to happen with their measles strain. Perhaps someone on here has different information though?

According to government officials, MMR uptake is around 95% in Wales for 5 year olds and younger. I don't know what the figure is for older children, but I'll see if I can find out. Certainly it would be very interesting to have concrete information on vaccinated versus nonvaccinated measles cases plus an idea of the seropositivity in vaccinated populations (as tested against wild measles).

Mr Wakefield would actually indicate that Wakefield qualified as a surgeon, which he didn't. He could be Professor Sir Andrew Wakefield and would still not be any more credible. The title issue is mainly an unnecessary distractor.

Beachcomber, Public Health Wales published the numbers www.wales.nhs.uk/sitesplus/888/page/66389#unvacc

In the end, after the thousands and thousands of pages I have read and the hours and hours I listened specifically to Wakefield (he has a lovely voice, did I mention that?), the most parsimonious explanation is that Wakefield lied.

Well, certainly for anyone who knows anything much about vaccine science, his suggestion is scientifically plausible and should be taken seriously.

For anyone who is following outbreak reporting, there is zero indication that the measles vaccine (in MMR) does lose effectiveness.

Wow. He has totally lost it.

I though you could only call yourself Dr. as in medical doctor if licensed to do so by the GMC? I may be wrong though.

BEachcomber - wales is a big place! There were schools in south wales in 2009 reporting MMR uptake as low as 14.8%.

I think the figures specifically for the Swansea area would be more helpful. Are you aware of any outbreaks in areas with 95%+ uptake because that to me would indicate a problem with the vaccine.

It would also be interesting to know if any of the chilren with measles had the MMR. Because that too would indicate a problme with the vaccine