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MMR - Did/Didn't you give it to your baby?

215 replies

cheeseypeas · 27/04/2006 09:14

My DS is about due for his MMR and I'm still really concerned about it and at the moment don't want him to have it (until he's older at least). Things like the autism rates going up so much since it was introduced, allot of regressive autism cases happening about the time of the jab, Tony Blair not giving it to his kid etc that are the causing for concern for me. Also, have read things written by people who believe their babies have been damaged by it and that sticks in my head. I know that the people that started the scare had ulterior motives etc.

Would be really interested to know of other mums reasoning for having it/not having it and any advice if possible. Thanks.

OP posts:
cheeseypeas · 27/04/2006 11:33

Exactly my problem. Mistrust. And as for thimerosal - how I can I trust the same people that put Mercury - a known neurotoxin - into injections to not have done something equally as dangerous/stupid with the MMR. I hate the odds game and I know that its a game you have to play at times when it comes to treatment of a baby who's ill, but my DS is healthy - that's what freaks me out about the whole thing.

Sorry, my posts are getting more emotional by the minute.

Am going to 'look into' the single jabs more now.

OP posts:
Sugarmag · 27/04/2006 11:39

Absolutely YES! Gave MMR to both kids without hesitation.

I did read all the bumpf, including the original report in The Lancet that started all the fuss and never found a single thing to convince me it wasn't safe!

  1. The Lancet article was based, not on any properly designed controlled trial, but on the feelings of 8 parents. While i'm not dismissing parental instinct I'm just saying it was hardly groundbreaking scientific evidence of anything.

  2. They've been using the MMR in the states far longer than they have in the UK. I'm 34 and had the MMR & 2 boosters in the early 1970s, as did all my friends and everyone I knew. I never once heard about a link between MMR & autism until I moved here in 1998.

  3. As to "why they couldn't keep the single jabs in the first place" is because there never were single jabs for all 3. There isn't and never has been a licensed single Mumps jab in the UK. The first single mumps jab offered in Japan killed lots of people. I assume the one that you can get hold of now is a different formulation but it still IS NOT LICENSED in the UK. If you get hold of it and use it's totally at your own risk.

  4. Using single jabs extends the time when they are unimmunised. Someone on this thread said they used single jabs and their DS wasn't fully immunised until 4. Don't know about you but I wouldn't want my kids starting nursery at 3 without full immunisation.

5)Potential serious side effects of measles & mumps can include meningitis/encephalitis, sterility (in boys), deafness & death. Rubella & mumps during pregnancy can also lead to serious complications.

lunarx · 27/04/2006 11:44

yes. my son had it.

Jimjamskeepingoffvaxthreads · 27/04/2006 11:49

Feelings of 8 parents? You're not serious? What do you need feeling to recognise constant diarrhoea and feeling to look down a scope and find a novel form of bowel disease. Where on earth do people get these ideas from.

My friend's little boy had the MMR and 24 hours later had a massive seizure. That was not a feeling it was a seizure. INcidentally her son's paed has said quite openly to her that he thinks the MMR triggered her son's severe autism (aged 7 non-verbal, not toilet trained, in nappies, blah blah).

There has been research showing that parents are actually very accurate at pinpointing the timing of regression - not necessarily MMR induced, it didn't look at that. They asked parents when they thought their child had started to regress. The collected videos and asked 2 researchers to time the age of regression, and hey presto the dates tallied between parents and researchers.

foxinsocks · 27/04/2006 11:58

donnie, this was several years ago (around 2002) but dd's paed was quite a well-known and respected allergy expert so I completely trusted his judgement.

Sugarmag · 27/04/2006 12:12

JimJams - I'm not suggesting the parents were imagining their children's symptoms. Of course the symptoms were real. Neither am I suggesting that they lied or imagined that the onset of the symptoms occurred some time after they had the MMR vacccine. But there is no evidence beyond their feelings to prove any kind of cause and effect between the vaccine and the symptoms. I quote from the article: "Onset of behavioural symptoms was associated, by the parents, with measles, mumps, and rubella vaccination in eight of the 12 children".

So this whole huge scare was started becase 8 parents associated the symptoms with the vaccine. They made this association based on retrospective recall. This is not proof of anything. There is no evidence of cause and effect. There is no actual medical evidence that there wasn't something recognizable in these children before they had the MMR. The study was flawed and a number of more robust studies since then have found no link.

Sugarmag · 27/04/2006 12:13

Plus the man was getting bl**dy paid to find a link - doesn't that tell you someting?

Jimjamskeepingoffvaxthreads · 27/04/2006 12:22

Actually the whole thing started because a parent came to Wakefield and asked them to lok at her child (most drs refuse to do investigative treatment on autisitc children - and I can understand why)- he did and found a type of bowel disease that had never been seen before. Then word of mouth spread- there was a doctor who was prepared to scope severly autistic children and so those mothers came to see him as well. And he found the same novel bowel disease. Yes they attributed onset of symoptoms to the MMR, but these were fairly violent symptoms with very obvious bowel changes.

Now further work has shown that the majority of these children have vaccie strain measles virus in their CSF and guts, whilst controls do not.

I think its fiddling with the facts a bit to describe it as mother's feelings. ("oh these mothers, these mothers who think their children have regressed ha ha ha" as one pead said on TV and yes I wanted to punch him).

Incidentally Wakefiled now thinks something more complicated is going on. He's worked a bit with Walsh in the States I think (a clinician), and I think he's looking more at certain viruses (vaccine or wild) triggering gut disease in a vulnerbale group that have been previously exposed to thimerosal.

gegs73 · 27/04/2006 12:24

I gave it to ds at 14 months. He has not had any long lasting effects, but was VERY ill for 2 weeks the day after - temp of 104, flu, listless, rash etc etc. He's fine now but very scarey at the time. For this reason would give a second child the singles. That said of my friends most children had no reaction at all, or were just abit off colour for a couple of days.

Sugarmag · 27/04/2006 12:31

JimJams - yes, i also read that some of these children have vaccine strain measles in their gut - but what is to suggest that you wouldn't get the same result from a single measles vaccine? I am not totally dismissing these parents as silly or paranoid I"m just saying there simply is no satisfactory evidence of a link.

Sugarmag · 27/04/2006 12:33

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Jimjamskeepingoffvaxthreads · 27/04/2006 12:35

How on earth was he being paid to find a link? The legal aid stuff do you mean? Well his statement is here:

A STATEMENT BY DR ANDREW WAKEFIELD

Allegation 4 completely misrepresents the facts. These were two quite
distinct issues; the first a clinical report of 12 cases and the second, a
hypothesis-testing
laboratory study to examine for the presence or absence of measles virus in
autistic
children when compared with appropriate controls.

A minority of the children described in the 1998 Lancet report were part of
the second study that was funded in part by the Legal Aid Board (later to
become the Legal Services Commission). The relationship of these two
distinct studies to the legal status of the relevant children is set out
below. Professor Walker-Smith has already described the basis for the
referral of these children according to clinical need.

At the time that the children reported in the 1998 Lancet paper were
referred to Professor Walker-Smith for investigation of their
gastrointestinal symptoms-the time material to their sequential
investigation and subsequent inclusion in the report-none of the 12
reported children was in fact legally aided, ie, in receipt of legal aid
certificates and therefore legal aid funding.

Whether parents perceived an association with MMR vaccine or not, whether
parents had approached lawyers with the intent to seek legal redress, or
whether children were in receipt of legal aid funding or not, had no
bearing whatsoever on their selection for clinical investigation or
inclusion in the Lancet report. Since these allegations were made I have
returned to parents (and where appropriate their current awyers) to
determine these facts. At the time the children underwent ileo-colonoscopy
(ie, the time at which their pathology, as reported in The Lancet in 1998,
was detected and reported by endoscopists and histopathologists), one child
had been granted a legal aid certificate. The authors had no knowledge of
this fact until now.

In support of this and in view of these allegations, parents of children in
the 1998 Lancet report have provided a written signed statement that (i)
they contacted me for help given their child's gastrointestinal symptoms,
(ii) their referral to the department of paediatric gastroenterology at the
Royal Free was through their child's doctor, (iii) that at no time did I
encourage them to seek
legal redress through the courts in the MMR class action, and (iv) that
their child formed part of the initial study of 12 children reported in The
Lancet in 1998.

Independently, I was commissioned through a solicitor, Richard Barr, to
undertake quite separate virological studies on ten children. This is
entirely in line with other university-based studies that have been
similarly funded by the Legal Services Commission, and reported, for
example, in the BMJ.1 The list of children provided to me by Richard Barr
was based on his knowledge of an overlap
between patients referred to the Royal Free and those whose parents had
made contact with Richard Barr. I could not have constructed such a list
since I had no knowledge of the litigation cohort or the legal status of
children within this cohort. I was
specifically concerned with addressing the scientific question in relation
to measles virus-a perfectly legitimate question in view of the nature of
the intestinal disease and the sequence of events in the children. Measles
virus infection of the intestine is a specific interest of mine.

Once again, it is important to emphasise that I had no specific knowledge
of the legal status of the ten children on the list other than as described
above.

Investigations, in light of the current allegations, indicate that four of
these children (exact number to be confirmed by Richard Barr) were among
those reported in the 1998 Lancet paper. The virological studies on these
children have been submitted for publication. If and when these studies are
finally published, due acknowledgement will be made of all sources of
funding, including that
from the Legal Services Commission.

Allegation 5 is an inaccurate misrepresentation of the facts. The results
eventually reported in the 1998 Lancet paper were in the public domain long
before their publication in February, 1998, having been presented at
several national and international scientific meetings. They were readily
available for interested parties to scrutinise and interpret as they saw
fit. The findings were not actively made available to the media until after
publication but, other than this, there was no attempt to conceal these data.

Such was the level of concern from the clinical and scientific team at the
indings in this group of children with a similar history and an apparently
novel bowel pathology, that I and Professor Walker-Smith reported them to a
meeting in October, 1997, convened by the Hon Tessa Jowell MP, then
Minister of Health, attended by the Chief Medical Officer Sir Kenneth
Calman and other officials from the Department of Health in the presence of
Richard Barr of Dawbarns solicitors, and representatives of interested
parent groups. Barr, for his part, was in attendance as a lawyer,
responsibly concerned by the sheer numbers of parents reporting, to him,
developmental regression and gastrointestinal symptoms in their children
following MMR vaccination.

It is important to emphasise that the only aspect of the 1998 Lancet paper
that could have been used to justify a multi-party action, as in the
foregoing accusation, is the parents' perception of a temporal relationship
between MMR vaccine exposure and onset of symptoms. This perception was
well known to the lawyers long before we were even aware of the role of the
lawyers, or
the proposed multi-party action, and certainly long before our publication
in The Lancet in 1998. This publication alone added nothing further to the
issue of causation than that which was already well known to the lawyers.
The accusation is therefore specious. My own report to the Legal Services
Commission on this matter was served in 1999.

With respect to allegation 6, as has been indicated above, these were two
separate matters. One, a report of clinical investigations, and the other,
a study commissioned quite independently through Richard Barr. The latter
study was designed in order to explore the issue of possible causation.
These studies were concerned with viral detection in the diseased
intestinal tissues of ten potentially affected children. This approach is
entirely in line with other university-based studies that have been
similarly funded by the Legal Services Commission, and reported in the BMJ.1

Funds received from the Legal Aid Board were paid into, and properly
administered hrough, a research account with the special trustees of the
Royal Free Hampstead NHS Trust.

I have stated above that the origin of the list of children was provided to
me by Richard Barr. My involvement was limited to the legitimate concern:
was measles virus present in the intestinal tissue of these children?

As outlined above, I can confirm that publication of the relevant
virological studies is still awaited. An interim submission of a report of
this study (rejected) contained an explicit acknowledgment of the Legal Aid
funding; this will be made available as necessary.

If and when the relevant virological studies are finally published, due
acknowledgement will be made of all sources of funding, including that from
the Legal Services Commission.

For none of these or any subsequent children has legal status influenced
the need for investigation or the interpretation of the findings. Where it
is known that children are in receipt of legal aid certificates or where
studies receive funding from the Legal Services Commission, this will be
included in any relevant publication.

The clinical and pathological findings in these children stand as reported.
They have now been confirmed independently by reputable physicians and
pathologists. On the basis of the molecular detection of measles virus in
the diseased intestine of these children this issue, too, merits further
study.

I regret the difficulties that this issue has caused my colleagues over the
last week and I am grateful to them for their advice and support. I am
enormously grateful for the timely manner in which Richard Horton has dealt
with this issue and for his clarification of the issues surrounding
perception and reality where conflict of interest may be concerned.

My colleagues and I have acted at all times in the best medical interests
of these children and will continue to do so.

Dr Andrew Wakefield

gegs73 · 27/04/2006 12:38

Single vac would be safer as their body would only have to fight one strain of virus not 3.

Jimjamskeepingoffvaxthreads · 27/04/2006 12:39

There isn't any sugarmag- in fact some children have regressed following a single measles jab, the anecdotal evidence is that fewer regress after a single jab. There are theoretical reasons why giving MMand R together may increase the risk (eg mumps alters permeability of cell membranes, measles makes you more vulnerable to infection- why it can be so nasty).

As I said earlier no-one is looking at MMR in isolation anymore anyway. Thimerosal is the big baddy, and Wakefield's current work takes account of thimerosal.

coppertop · 27/04/2006 12:40

:o

Jimjamskeepingoffvaxthreads · 27/04/2006 12:41

"these parents' there we go again. That's very patronising you know. Even if you don't think it is. There are a few of "these parents" (with children who regressed following MMR) on SN, you could take a stroll over there.

Jimjamskeepingoffvaxthreads · 27/04/2006 12:42

Yep you're right coppertop. I'm off.

Anyway amazed how many people have been completely unable to see through the Wakefiled smear campaign, but read the links to the patent stuff and read his statement.

oliveoil · 27/04/2006 12:55

ahem

cori · 27/04/2006 13:02

Sorry to interrupt, is it the case that thirmesol is no longer in the MMR? Was it ever in the single vaccinations?

Twiglett · 27/04/2006 13:04

giggling at JimJams inability to live up to your new name Grin

.. .DS had sepvax .. because we have family history link to chrons

... DD had thimerosal free primaries (fought for pre-intro of 5 in 1) given 2 at a time, 2 weeks apart

she then had MMR and 10 days later was hospitalised with pneumonia Sad .. every doctor at pains to stress how it was NOTHING to do with MMR .. I think there was a lowering of her immune system due to introduction of 3 diseases that wouldn't have naturally been caught at the same time .. that then lead to her resistance to pneumonia being lowered ... If I could go back in time I would have sepvaxed her too

Twiglett · 27/04/2006 13:05

cori .. thimerosal was never in MMR

it was in the primary jabs at 2,3 and 4 months .. the DTP (although alternative without thimerosal was available if you knew to ask DTaP)

it was removed in 2004 (I think September) and intro of 5 in 1

Sugarmag · 27/04/2006 13:09

There was no smear campaign - even one of the doctors who worked for him at the time admitted the data was faulty!

And I am NOT being patronising, I'm just saying that the reports of a few parents is not the same as robust scientific evidence - how is that patronising? By your line of reasoning I should also listen to the mum who told me she was convinced her son had a tummy bug because her MIL gave him milk that had been previously frozen (depsite the fact that every 2nd child had a tummy bug at the time) -or the one who told me she knew for certain that stomach bugs were not contagious - or yet another one who swore on her life that there was no link between my dd's ear infection and the trouble she was having balancing. I don't think these people are stupid. I also don't think they are doctors. I don't see how that is patronising.

Uwila · 27/04/2006 13:10

Oh oh... jimjamsNOTkeepingoffvaxthreads

kateandfelicity · 27/04/2006 13:13

Hello

Have just been advised by doctor yesterday that dd may be allergic to egg, and therefore may not be able to get MMR .... is there an alternative immunisation she can get? could she get some of the vaccinations if done separately or do they all have egg????

very confusing....

doctor said we will have to rely on the rest of the population getting their children immunised...hmmm.

any advise?

Uwila · 27/04/2006 13:13

I can understand that there is a debate over vaccinating and not vaccinating. But I have yet to hear anything worth listening to on not getting single vax. Okay, 2 of the diseases have delayed protection. But, what... 6 maybe 12 months. That doesn't really seem worth getting uptight over.