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Has anybody decided not to vaccinate their child or to only selectively vaccinate them?

155 replies

arabella2 · 16/12/2003 10:07

And if so, how did you come to that decision. Ds has not had any vaccinations as yet, but once he goes to nursery I think it may become more important. Even then though we do not want him to have the whole lot as we think it's too much for the system to absorb, but it is very difficult to know which ones are more important and also better tolerated by the body. We would also go for mercury free vaccinations which my gp told me were available. I want to know, if they are available, why aren't they offered as a matter of routine - expense presumably.
The whole thing is a minefield because it seems to be very difficult to get a balanced viewpoint of the whole issue with the pro people being very pro and the contra people being very against.
Any thoughts appreciated but no lecturing please.

OP posts:
Jimjambells · 19/12/2003 11:18

And the risks are smaller if you (as in one) sticks your (as in ones) head in the sand and refuses to admit that something nasty going on could possibly be related to the MMR. Maybe its not- but if we refuse to look then it definitely can't be linked.

bossykate · 19/12/2003 11:26

jimjams, if your comments are directed at me they are uncalled for. i have said repeatedly that i think more research is required. however, the hypothesis that there is a link between mmr and autism has not been adequately tested yet. therefore, the assessment of the relative risks must be based on the information currently available. i sometimes think when you respond to me you are actually responding to a composite figure of every unhelpful doctor and unkind NT parent you have ever met.

jmg · 19/12/2003 11:42

I think that what various people's views on this thread are not that far apart. Most people accept that more research needs to be done which pretty much gives a consistent starting point for most of the posters.

I think that where there are different views is in what one does in the meantime. Some seem more disposed to believe the line that the research that has been done to date supports giving MMR therefore that's what I will do for my children. Others think that the research done to date does not and therefore they will look at some alternative.

So what is happening is that people are overlaying on the research their own risk analysis. Personal risk evaluation is a hugely subjective area, and will be a mixture of our past experience, our beliefs, our independence of thought etc etc.

Hence it will be nearly impossible for one person to even articulte all the factors implicit int their risk evaluation never mind try to convince someone else of it. Because the other person will not share the same past experiences or beliefs or independence of thought exactly. This is why the MMR debate gets so heated. Each side cannot see why the other side does not 'get it' - i.e. why do they not see what I see or think what I think!

The one thing that I think is interesting is that as far as this thread goes - no one appears to be talking of not vaccinating at all, except where there are known, and well evaluated, risk factors. What the debate here seems to be about is singles vs MMR.

What my worry about this situation is, is that some parents cannot afford to go down the singles route and is it fair therefore that I had a choice, because I can afford it, but they do not. Their choice is by far the hardest one - to vaccinate or not and believe me I would not have wanted to be in that position!

Whatever decision they arrive at I am sure it will not have been taken lightly - it may not have been your choice because they do not share your risk analysis, but it will have been a difficult choice to make!

Jimjambells · 19/12/2003 11:55

Which was why I said " as in one" after my you BK, so you would not think it was directed at you. I don;t know you so I have no idea whether you are an unkind NT parent or not, I know you are not an unhelpful dr. My "one" was directed at people who have the power to change things (I don't, you don't). This is what people like Brent Taylor and the wonderful Elizabeth Miller are doing. They are refusing to even consider the possibility of a link. Dangerous indeed. BTW if anyone ever meets either of them- poke them in the eye for me.

jmg- personally I would argue that there is a case for not vaccinating against measles and mumps (athough not rubella for teenage girls who are not immune). However I know that the risk/benefit ratio for that is harder to weigh up without better safety and efficacy data on the vaccines (well for measles anyway) and there are certainly cons to that approach- some quite major ones. I am open minded about that shall we say. Certianly think it should come under consideration though.

FairyMum · 19/12/2003 11:57

Jimjams, I thought you were going out to post your parcels ?Are you stuck to pc with your child impatiently by your side?

Jimjambells · 19/12/2003 12:09

I came on here to get some addresses. Parcels are now wrapped. DS2 is glued to teletubbies. Now off out to post.

Thank god the xmas tree lights have been allowed to stay on.

bossykate · 19/12/2003 12:14

no, you don't know me, so i'm baffled as to why i'm always addressed as though i were the enemy in some way.

Jimjambells · 19/12/2003 12:30

I'm not BK. I've argued with you over the last week or so. I've replied bluntly that is not the same as imagining you are some sort of enemy (to be frank I don't really bother with that sort of thing- haven't got the time). Take FM- we are getting heated on this thread and another- although at other times we agree without any problem, I don't see her as some sort of enemy and I'm sure she doesn't see me as one. I get heated on MMR threads because I know these real people who are being ignored - so to me it is personal. It's not just an academic arguement.

Anyway don't know whether anyone is interested. I used to be rabidly pro all vaccinations, have done a complete U-turn. In my case this is how it happened.

D1 was born in May 99. The MMR issue was just starting. Towards the end of 99 (I think) Taylor's paper was printed and the debate started up again. Around that time a friend adsked me what my views were and I told her not to be sao stupid and to get her child vacinated after all the Taylor paper had been released. Ds1 then got sick with eczema herpeticum and I thought I ought to check out information about MMR as he was due that. I started with the Taylor paper- read it and thought something along the lines of "eh? this completely misses the point". Then I searched and read stuff that other experts had written, at frst about that paper then about the autism link in general. I decided to go with single vaccines - and ds1 had mealses jab at 15 months. Anyway I had to keep cancelling the mumps appointment (I'd decided not to give rubella). Partly becuase he was ill and partly becuase I was beginning to get concerned asa he had stopped talking at 16 months. Didn't think much more about it, but followed new papers when they came out and began to wonder why the govt was lying to us. By just over 2 I had realised that ds1 was probably autistic - couldn't get near the top of any sort of waiting list so contacted the autism research unit, had urine tests, started the diet and began to follow their work with interest. By now I was pregnant with ds2. By the time he was born I still had no idea whether to vaccinate. He made the decision for me by being ill, so I had to put his dtp's back. Read more and decided in our case it was not wise.

ALthough I am particulaly interested in autism now- I made my decisions backwards so to speak. Decided against MMR before even suspecting ds1 was autistic (well he may not have been then as he hadn't got ill when I first started looking, and he was gaze monitoring and he was playing peekaboo).

bossykate · 19/12/2003 12:40

i think you've replied more than "bluntly" - but i accept this is due to the fact that this issue is personal for you and not academic (as it is for me).

Jimjambells · 19/12/2003 13:26

in which case I apologise for my personality.I don't go out of my way to upset people sitting at the other end of a bunch of computer cables so I apologise.

alohappychristmas · 19/12/2003 13:58

Twiglett, it also annoys me that I am probably listed as a non-vaccinator as Ds has also not had the MMR. I am not convinced that it is dangerous at all, but also not totally convinced that it is superior to single jabs - and having a boy and a father who I strongly believe is on the Aspergers side (and a brother who would definitely have been diagnosed ADHD had that diagnosis existed in the 70s) I was worried. I wonder BK if living so near the Direct Health clinic in Eltham skews the MMR figures for S London?

FairyMum · 19/12/2003 14:02

Oh, I live in Eltham too. Hello!

Jimjambells · 19/12/2003 14:10

I used to live very close to Eltham FM. Hello for a year and a half ago. Used to drive past the edge of Eltham on my way to the Greenwich Steiner school (where ds1 was about the only vaccinated child in the parent and toddler group).

FairyMum · 19/12/2003 14:21

My Ds will probably go to that Steiner School. Still thinking about it, but increasingly likely. (Will obviously drag the other Steiner-kids by their hair to get their MMRs first,) )

bossybaubles · 19/12/2003 14:48

hi aloha, the figures i have seen are specifically for lambeth not greenwich which is where (i think) the eltham clinic is. however, you could be right, the shortfall could well be made up - in part - by those having single vaccines. however, based only on anecdotal evidence from mumsnet discussions, it seems that people do not vaccinate at all at least for a while because they simply do not know what to do for the best. another reason why i am in favour of taking the more hysterical elements (such as conspiracy theories) out of the debate. however, that is speculation based on anecdotal evidence which is what i have been consistently arguing against so i will not go to bat for that theory!

Jimjambells · 19/12/2003 15:06

really? Tell me if he does, I'll get you to say hello to some people. Thet are so lovely there. honestly I still get quite emotional when I think about how accepting they were of ds1 there- and me come to that. They helped at a very tough time for us. (If they've forgotton who I am you can tell them I was the one who used to sit sobbing in the corner - apologising for being a wreck- actually there's no way they could have forgotton ds1).

We'll get you wearing stripes, eating only organic food and not vaccinating your children yet

Jimjambells · 19/12/2003 15:08

really? Tell me if he does, I'll get you to say hello to some people. Thet are so lovely there. honestly I still get quite emotional when I think about how accepting they were of ds1 there- and me come to that. They helped at a very tough time for us. (If they've forgotton who I am you can tell them I was the one who used to sit sobbing in the corner - apologising for being a wreck- actually there's no way they could have forgotton ds1).

We'll get you wearing stripes, eating only organic food and not vaccinating your children yet

Jimjambells · 19/12/2003 15:10

Is anyone really arguing for conspiracy theories?

jinglesaur · 19/12/2003 15:22

Um...I think some parents in the US are (by the drug companies).

Jimjambells · 19/12/2003 15:33

are they? I've heard some people argue that there's been a cover up about thimerosil, but that's a bit different as loads of studies have been done on thimerosil (all except one showing it to be unsafe btw!). Surely there isn't enough evidence either way to conspire about the MMR.

Jimjambells · 19/12/2003 15:37

are they? I've heard some people argue that there's been a cover up about thimerosil, but that's a bit different as loads of studies have been done on thimerosil (all except one showing it to be unsafe btw!). Surely there isn't enough evidence either way to conspire about the MMR.

jinglesaur · 19/12/2003 15:37

You're right, the focus is much more on thimerosil rather than the MMR.

Jimjambells · 19/12/2003 15:43

Oh god thimerosil- another can of worms.....

jinglesaur · 19/12/2003 15:54

TBH that is the one that worries me much more than the MMR...did not know about it in time for DS2's vaccinations, but as am pregnant again now, can see it as a real issue for next time around...

Jimjambells · 19/12/2003 15:58

me too- worries me more as well......

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