Vaccinations and nursery schools

[Louise1010]

This is my first post so forgive me if I do anything wrong!

I am just beginning to look at nursery schools for my 15 month old son, and I am a bit surprised that they don't seem to care whether or not he has been vaccinated. I expected it to be a requirement.

It seems incredible to me that I have to provide evidence of my cat's jabs to the cattery but when it comes to children anything goes.

Has anyone come across a nursery school in the UK that does require it?

"I cant believe you lot are even discussing curing people of their conditions and seriously for even one second proposing to force it on them / take away parental choice."

If anyone had suggested forcing a "cure" on anyone it would be disgusting.

But nobody said that. In fact they said the opposite.

Who brought the idea of "curing" autism to this thread? Was it
LeonieDelt Sat 04-Aug-12 08:27:07
or was it someone else?

And it was Leonie who was the first to say anything about enforced "cures".

Anything to cloud the issue.

I am shocked that Leonie is even discussing curing people of their conditions and introducing the idea to force it on them / take away parental choice.

I'm confused. Does this mean the remote possibility that MMR may trigger autism, isn't a drawback, and as such Leonie is in favour of MMR?

Toto, we're not in Kansas

no, I think it means there are several groups of people with conflicting and contradictory opinions. In some cases some people may simultaneously hold two or more contradictory opinions at the same time.

There will be people who consider that autism is a blessing and should not be prevented and that no attempt should be made to prevent or "cure" it

There will be people who consider that autism is a curse and should be prevented and cured

There will be people who consider that autism is caused by wearing red shoes or some other cause, and may therefore oppose or encourage whatever they consider the cause to be.

There will be people who consider that autism is caused or avoided by chance or by some factor or factors not yet known, and may therefore not oppose or encourage factors that might or might not have an effect in increasing or reducing autism.

It is itritating when people post angry, inaccurate and insulting posts then go away. Classic avoidance tactics- I don't know why I fall for it. I do wish we could discuss this properly!

I suspect that if my child regressed into autism and lost his social and physical skills, then I expect I'd be looking for a cure.
If he were born on the autistic spectrum, that might be different.
A friend (she worked with children diagnosed with autism) once told me that the autistic spectrum is so wide that we might all be on there somewhere.

You're taking about HF autism. These people have the capacity and can consent to or against treatment/symptom relief/whatever. I work alongside a lady who is so severely affected, she cannot walk past a person in a corridor. Fuck 'curing' her but having an improvement in her symptoms would make her life so much less traumatic.

^^ that was to Leonie

Standard "say something inaccurate, irrelevant and insulting then run" tactic.

LD 'did you read the link?

They are killing baby girls in the third world with DPT vaccinations. '

Read it, provided another to show deaths by the hundreds of thousands among both babies and mothers over the years among unvaccinated populations.

Some baby girls have died. Nobody is on a killing spree.

If you want to complain about the death of baby girls, campaign against female infanticide and foeticide in India and China. Or complain about the boys and girls killed or permanently damaged by diseases for which vaccines exist.

Math

Leonie doesn't care. She doesn't believe in scientific evidence unless it agrees with what she's already decided in which case it's all A-OK. And she doesn't really care about female babies in low income countries or she'd understand just how vital vaccination is for child survival, she was excited about finding a paper which shows vaccine damage despite being completely unrelated to the discussion at hand.The studies examining DTP effects in high mortality are also hugely flawed. It's not the authors' fault - they've done the best they can in challenging circumstances - but I'd like to see the anti-vaxers' critical epidemiological skills in action now (rather than just copying and pasting from some website in the crankosphere). But I fear that hyper-criticism is reserved for studies which they don't agree with.

That said, there clearly is a problem in certain high mortality populations with the scheduling of the DPT vaccinations as other studies have shown an increased female mortality effect depending on when and in what order the vaccines are given. The authors certainly did not suggest not vaccinating as they are well aware of the benefits provided but they do suggest changing the vaccination schedule with more research needed to find the optimal vaccine schedule.

I think this is really inspiring - perhaps this kind of grass roots movement is what we need to see more of, local ownership!
pneumonia vaccine in The Gambia

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think that Leonie's link could be described as "cranksosphere", could it?

Wasn't it this one?
adc.bmj.com/content/early/2012/02/13/archdischild-2011-300646.full

But tabitha, I thought you didn't believe in epidemiology. have you been converted?

Is that the link that Leonie thinks says it's OK to kill babies?

Do you think it says that too, Tabitha?

Did you think that all her links come from the BMJ?

So, is the link "crankosphere" or not? It wasn't my link. You called it "crankosphere".
May I remind you, by the way, that I'm not a scientist. I'm a parent; not that scientists can't be parents.
When epidemiological studies tell me that the MMR doesn't cause a child to regress into autism, I want to know why so many parents have reported exactly that change in their children following the MMR. I would then go on to suggest that studies of a different kind are required to determine what is happening to those children and how we can identify others who will suffer similarly.

PigletJohn I find it hard to correspond with you on here because, if you don't understand what I say, you ask other people to explain, instead of asking me.

So if an epidemiological study shows elevated non specific mortality for girls but parents haven't reported any problems, what then? Do you go with the parents' reports or do you believe the epidemiology? Because in this case, parents hadn't linked the DTP vaccine with elevated mortality, it was epidemiology which uncovered it.

BTW, no one said the link is from the crankosphere. And no one has denied that vaccine damage exists.

Indeed, the very fact that the DTP issue is reported and taken seriously (this study isn't the first to show it - I could link to a few others, mostly by the same author in high mortality west African communities) goes to show that where there is a problem with a certain vaccination, there is no cover-up or grand conspiracy. if there were a link between MMR and autism, you'd see it - take heart from the fact that NON SPECIFIC mortality effects are being picked up on in countries with poor disease surveillance and little vital registration.

Tabitha, you say 'so many parents have reported' autism following MMR. What makes believe the are so many? The families you know, or have read about, can only be a tiny number relative to the number of children vaccinated.

Tabitha

I did repeatedly try to get you to say what your point was, but you didn't.

I have very little sympathy with vague and unsubstantiated smears where the smearer won't say what, if anything, is the point.

Is this going back to aluminium yet again?
Here are more questions.
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22099159

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21568886

I don't think leonie's "killing babies" idea is anything to do with Aluminium, do you?

If so, why?

If not, why are you introducing the idea?

Yet again I am trying to explain my concern with aluminium. Have you read my links? There are concerns with aluminium in vaccinations.
I am not talking about Leonie's link.
I am trying to explain why I thought you were so rude (I ought to have added patronising at the time as well).