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Original poster

Vaccinations and nursery schools

578 replies

Louise1010 · 13/07/2012 00:04

This is my first post so forgive me if I do anything wrong!

I am just beginning to look at nursery schools for my 15 month old son, and I am a bit surprised that they don't seem to care whether or not he has been vaccinated. I expected it to be a requirement.

It seems incredible to me that I have to provide evidence of my cat's jabs to the cattery but when it comes to children anything goes.

Has anyone come across a nursery school in the UK that does require it?

OP posts:
PigletJohn · 08/08/2012 19:25

Hello, bumbleymummy.

If vaccines caused Autism, as Tabitha appears to believe, (whether due to Aluminium or something else) would you expect scientific research to be able to detect it?

ElaineBenes · 08/08/2012 19:28

Also the MMR doesn't contain aluminium so we can at least put that baby to bed, right?

PigletJohn · 08/08/2012 19:42

Ah, so that's why Tabitha brought Alumium into the discussion!

BTW wasn't it shameful and disgusting of Leonie to claim that people were deliberatly using vaccination to kill babies? And deceitful to back up her revolting allegation with a web link that said nothing of the sort?

Do anti-vaxxers spread these wicked lies to try to put people off vaccinations, or can there be some other reason?

JoTheHot · 08/08/2012 19:46

yeah, but you can't prove they don't put aluminium in on the sly, and not mention it in the ingredients, can you?

PigletJohn · 08/08/2012 20:05

could be turnip juice.

mathanxiety · 08/08/2012 20:47

'What evidence do you have that aluminium in vaccinations is safe? '

How about millions of children who have been vaccinated over many decades and have suffered no ill effects whatsoever?

bumbleymummy · 08/08/2012 21:06

Piglet, I don't think she believes that it causes autism nor do I think she was saying that it causes Alzheimer's (which you accused her of earlier).

PigletJohn · 08/08/2012 21:52

ACCUSED????

She made a vague and unsubtantiated smear about aluminium, and attached a link about Alzheimers.

Several of us wasted our time trying to find what evidence there was that aluminium was a a cause of Alheimers, after which she said that wasn't what she meant.

It's hardly my fault if I find it difficult to guess what point is intended to be conveyed by a vague post.

Are you saying you don't know if she is arguing that Aluminium causes Autism or not?

ElaineBenes · 08/08/2012 22:02

Bumbley

Tabitha linked to and quoted from a (terrible) study entitled 'Do aluminum vaccine adjuvants contribute to the rising prevalence of autism?'

Therefore I, and others, reasonably assumed that autism was among her concerns regarding aluminium in vaccines. Although she did argue before that aluminium in vaccines is a cause of Alzheimers, despite no evidence to back her claim.

I don't think she knows what her concerns are, it just sounds scary.

bumbleymummy · 09/08/2012 00:08

I don't see where she has said that aluminium causes autism. She didn't say it caused Alzeimers either.

bumbleymummy · 09/08/2012 00:09

Alzheimer's *

ElaineBenes · 09/08/2012 00:28

Bumbley

Sorry, this thread has got all mixed up with the previous one on the mmr.

After realizing that there was no scientific evidence linking the mmr and autism, tabitha moved the goalposts and said 'well, anyway, it's the aluminum in vaccines which bothers me' even though the mmr contains no aluminum.

She then proceeded to links to a page from he Alzheimer's society website talking about aluminum as evidence of her concern that vaccines cause alzheimers! Then, on this thread, she linked to a very bad paper looking at aluminum and autism. What exactly do you or tabitha think is the problem with the tiny amount of aluminum in vaccines? Autism? Alzheimer's? Something else?

PigletJohn · 09/08/2012 00:29

So in your opinion, bumbley, what do all these comments about Aluminium mean?

If you don't think it is to imply that Aluminium causes autism or Alzheimers, do you think it could it be just a vague and unsubstantiated smear intended to cause suspicion and vague feelings of unease with no facts behind them?

I have my own opinion, but I'd be interested to hear yours, since you have clearly taken a view.

PigletJohn · 09/08/2012 00:30

too slow

bumbleymummy · 09/08/2012 08:32

I've read both threads Elaine. I don't think she moved the goalposts. She said she had other concerns about vaccines and mentioned aluminium and its long term effects. She linked to the Alzheimer's page becuase it talked about how 95% of ingested aluminium passes through the body unabsorbed. (In support of a comment she had made about that).She used that particular website because you had been making your snide comments about not believing what is written on 'crankosphere'. Piglet decided that meant that she was saying that Al causes Alzheimers. Tab specifically said she wasn't saying that (the link dudnt say that either!) and explained why she had linked to that website (again, because it was talking about how Al in our diet passes through our bodies unabsorbed) in a few of her responses but you and PJ just kept ignoring that.

She posted another link to medscape on the other thread about Aluminium toxicity (which also mentioned concerns about Al in vaccines) but you both seemed to ignore that while you waffled on about turnips etc. As she has said on this thread, she has been trying to explain some of the concerns that she has about Al in vaccines. I don't see where she has said that Al causes autism. Maybe if you just read what she writes instead of what you think she is writing it would help?

JoTheHot · 09/08/2012 09:03

Funds for medical research are limited, so if one avenue of research is pursued, another isn't. Do you think aluminium in vaccines presents a risk worthy of further research? If so what is this risk?

PigletJohn · 09/08/2012 09:20

So in your opinion, bumbley, what do all these comments about Aluminium mean?

ElaineBenes · 09/08/2012 11:40

As I said, tabitha linked to and quoted from a study which tried to show a link between aluminum and autism. If she didn't agree with the study then she should say so.

Ok, so we've now established so far that neither tabitha nor bumbley think that aluminum in vaccines causes Alzheimer's or autism. Good. I agree. So what's the problem?

PigletJohn · 09/08/2012 11:51

Shall I post another ten times about turnips and lung cancer?

Later, I can always get someone to say I don't really mean they cause lung cancer and anyone who think I was suggesting that is "accusing" me or failing to understand my point.

What about them turnips, eh? Aren't you concerned about lung cancer? Why isn't there more research?

ElaineBenes · 09/08/2012 12:23

And have they been proven safe?

Personally, if I was concerned about aluminum, I'd do everything possible to reduce the risk of my child been hooked up to iv fluids which contain quite a bit of aluminum. So I certainly wouldn't expose my child to the unnecessary risk of measles or pertussis or rotavirus for that matter.

Tabitha8 · 09/08/2012 15:15

Bumbley Your explanation of what I was trying to say was very accurate. How come you could do that? Answer: Because you read the links. Simple. I think the others read the links, too, but deliberately tried to misinterpret what I was saying.

For the avoidance of doubt, here again is the link from the Alheimer's Society website saying:
^However, the presence of aluminium does not mean that the aluminium was the causal factor − it is more likely to be a harmless secondary association.
?Some have claimed that people with Alzheimer's disease have a higher than average level of aluminium in their brains. However, other studies find no difference between the overall amount of aluminium in the brains of people with Alzheimer's and the amount in normal brains (Trapp et al 1978).
?Studies of other sources of aluminium, such as tea, antacid medications and antiperspirants have also failed to show a positive association with Alzheimer's disease^
www.alzheimers.org.uk/site/scripts/documents_info.php?documentID=99

Elaine The aluminium/autism links were saying that further research is needed. What part of that can you not follow? I cannot claim that aluminium in vaccines does cause autism and neither can I claim that it doesn't. Can you claim that it doesn't? What research has been done to support your view?

Have I missed anyone apart from those stupid comments about turnips?

Tabitha8 · 09/08/2012 15:20

Sorry, I missed Jo.
Read the links and you'll see what the authors were saying.
Here they are yet again:
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22099159
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21568886

PigletJohn · 09/08/2012 15:23

I think I get your point

The Alzheimers Society say that (despite looking) no causative link between Alzheimers and Aluminium has been found.

So we'll proceed on the basis that there is no reason to suppose a link

A number of studies have looked, but found no causative link between MMR and Autism

So we'll proceed on the basis that there is no reason to suppose a link

Nobody has shown a causative link between Aluminium and Autism, or between Turnips and Lung Cancer. However some people think it best to spread unsubstantiated rumours that a link might exist, but has not yet been detected.

Have I covered everything, including those stupid remarks about Aluminium?

Tabitha8 · 09/08/2012 15:24

By the way, Elaine you misquoted me. I actually said:

Actually, I have other reasons why I'm not completely happy about the whole vaccination process. Additives. Aluminium and its long term effects, for example.

Tabitha8 · 09/08/2012 15:26

Who has done the research, then, to show that aluminium isn't a factor for autism? I'm pleased to hear it has at last been done.
My links were, after all, about 12 months old.