where can i find UK MMR stats/data- what are the chances?

[gwendy]

hello- this seems the right place to ask: where can i find UK data on vaccinations, specifically related to MMR eg how many unvaccinated children died of measles, mumps & rubella in UK last year; how many unvaccinated children had serious complications after contracting measles, mumps or rubella in the UK last year etc.

my 2-year old has not had the MMR [yet] mostly because i think there is something quite creepy & horrid about injecting ones healthy child with an unholy mixture of bacteria, god-know-what chemicals, animal bits & pieces, formaldehyde etc etc and for what? [not interested in herd mentality immunity argument] what exactly are the stats: are the chances of my baby dying from measles more or less than him being struck by lightning or being savaged by a dog? i?m not interested in the WHO stats, or global figures citing third-world countries, but only about the UK, where we live. i need some perspective on vaccination as the pressure i?m starting to get/feel from GP, grandparents, husband is making me doubt myself: are measles, mumps & rubella really, actually such killer diseases in the UK these days? is it worth my time worrying about these illnesses, or would my time be better spent wringing my hands over street drugs & smoking? :)

ps. he had all his other vaccinations- delayed- husband scooped him up & took him- no ?side-effects? to date, well that we can outwardly see.

pps. also i didn?t want him to have the MMR as he has an inherently weak chest- have been told twice by GP he has asthma when i took him in for a chesty cough. did not agree AT ALL with this diagnosis & treated his cough using alternative medicine/common sense. we have severe chest complaints in our family history & eczema & i have read numerous stories about MMR being the trigger for such complaints

thanks in advance- no preachy preaching pls- i need to understand the stats & make my own decision.

would welcome similar stories & advise, thank you g x

Hi gwendy - unfortunately you can't get breakdowns by vaccine status. The HPA have epidemiological data for cases and deaths in the UK but I don't think they have the 2011 ones yet.

Here is are the number of cases of MM and R in England and Wales from 1996 - 2011.

Here are the numbers for measles notifications and deaths in England and Wales until 2008.

There are no figures for deaths from rubella and mumps - probably because they very rarely kill! There are no figures for complications on the website. Hope these are of some use to you!

For any of the things you mention it depends.

If your DC never goes near a dog he will neve be savaged with a dog.

Many children come into contact with dogs and few are savaged. If your someone in your houshold has measels then the rate of infection is 90%.

So the chance of your child contracting measels depends on whether there is an outbreak ad whether your child comes into contact with it. It really is a question that cannot be answered.

I don't understand your reason for the chest thing - if your son already has problems with his chest then the cannot have been triggered by MMR as he has not had it.

bumbley has given a link to find out as much as you are going to be able to, probably.

I doubt accurate info even exists for numbers of cases (and therefore complication rates) for mumps and rubella.

dd2 had suspected mumps the week before last. I took her to the doctor (it took me 3 attempts at ringing up to even get an appointment - first of all the triage nurse was going to call me back, then I had to chase that and was told that I had missed my appointment (that I had never been told about ) and then finally I was able to go along at end of surgery and wait). I told them each time I spoke to them that I suspected mumps, and it was confirmed to me that they would put us in a separate waiting area, and check their swab kits (since mumps is notifiable).

none of the above happened until I reminded them each time.

the gp was uninterested in swabbing, until I reminded him that mumps is notifiable

I am, 10 days later, still waiting for the test results.

there have been several children of school (before dd2) with the same symptoms, and a lot of muttering around the playground that 'it doesn't seem like the run of the mill virus' that the dos are saying it is. my gp agreed with me that dd2 was exhibiting classic mumps symptoms (but was not going to confirm it until i pushed) - I wonder how many of the other childrne with this 'unnamed' virus also ticked all those boxes (many from what I hear...)

so, if the data is not even being collected, then it cannot exist.

it is farcical.

Silver

Has your dd or the other children with mumps symptoms had the mmr jab ?

dd2 is on a school site with very young children (nursery, pre-school and reception)

the mumps part of the mmr is not terribly effective, and after one dose (the majority of the setting) is given there is an accepted efficacy rate of 80% (talking about mumps specifically here).

dd2 is unvaccinated for medical reasons.

I have no idea about the vaccine status of the other children - why would I?

but given the fact that mumps is notifiable, I would assume that a child presenting with classic mumps symptoms would be checked for mumps. regardless of vaccine status, given that is is known that a) some children will not be immune following vaccination, and b) vaccine immunity is known to wane (and i ndd2's case since she is not vaccinated anyway)

obviously a silly assumption on my part, though.

You sound as if Iv bugged you ! But I was only curious if people were getting mumps having been vaccinated. My dd hasn't had jabs has she has convulsions and I'm so worried she will fit bad again. I'm sitting here worried now as they have sent a letter home from school saying a child has German measles. Wonder of it definitely is that as lots of children have had rash type illness lately .

happyday - German measles (rubella) is not usually dangerous at all in children. Both my DSs had it when they were under a year old. We didn't even know DS2 was ill and then this rash appeared! DS1 just had a low fever with it. It can be dangerous for pregnant women who are not immune so that is probably why they've sent the letter home.

no, sorry, you havent' - just the system!

we get told all the time how awful mumps is, and how it is essential it be immunised against, and how gp/school/everyone must be notified immediately if suspected etc.

and then, you try to do that, and get treated as though you are overreacting! it's bizarre

I have dd1 at home today, as she has a slight temperature, a cough, and is sniffly. and so she is at home, in case she is coming down with mumps (she has had mmr), when dd2 may not have had it at all (although I strongly suspect she did) - knowing the test results woudl be quite helpful at this point, but the only one chasing them is me, no on e else is interested!

I hope your dd is ok. German measles is typically a mild illness - a sore throat and a rash. if it is German measles, and your dd catches it, complications are incredibly rare - the danger is to pregnant women. try not to worry too much.

Here is the NHS info on rubella - hopefully it will reassure you.

I actually wonder if cases of rubella are actually all reported - particularly in vaccinated children.

I very much doubt it, bumbley.

and certainly not for mumps, if my experience is anything to go by - I got the impression that the gp would ahve vastly preferred me accepting the /non-specific virus/ dx than go to the hassle of swab testing, and then notifying relevant authorites etc.

which just makes a mockery of all the 'official' figures on mumps/rubella cases, doesn't it?

Just a bit! I'm not sure I entirely trust the measles figures either after another MNer (riven perhaps?) posted about her unvaccinated child being diagnosed with measles but the child in the next room who had all the same symptoms was diagnosed with a 'measles type virus' because she'd had the MMR. How often does that happen I wonder? I sometimes wonder if the doctors were ok with diagnosing my boys with rubella because they were under a year old and wouldn't have had the MMR. Apparently mild measles can be confused with rubella - the doctor actually initially thought it WAS measles for DS2 except he said they were usually more sick with it so it was probably rubella. No tests done though.

you see, I find that really odd and worrying (docs response, not yours!)

if a disease is notifiable, then surely the doctor should be ruling it in/out definitively? and m, m and r are all notifiable now. I know of a couple of posters who have had 'measles-like virus' dx'd in their children, but without any tests to check.

my gp spent a lot of the appt trying to convince me dd2 had tonsillitis. when I said 'oh, so she's ok to go back to school when feeling better then' (given tonsillitis has no official exclusion period), he very swiftly said 'oh no, she'll be off at least a week' (oddly enough, that coincides with the mumps exclusion period ). so clearly he was in enough doubt himself as to whether it was mumps, but made no move to do any swab until I pointed out mumps was notifiable, and that really, I had a duty to inform the school whether it was/wasn't.

given the way mmr is pushed, and the huge (financial and other) investment in it, you'd think that proper data on how effective it is would be a useful start point, surely?

You would think because she was unvaccinated that he would have been more inclined to want to rule it out. I agree that proper data would be useful. the idea that currently doctors may be just 'assuming' that the MMR is effective and automatically ruling out those diseases in vaccinated children is a bit worrying.

Thanks Bumbley and Silver. I will still worry as feel bad that dd hasn't had jabs and she is five !
I have kept her off school for two days but know she can't stay off for ever. I think I may have to have her injections done soon the nurse said if I'm that worried about it I can ask to have them done at hospital just Incase she has a reaction .
Hope your dd is ok Silver .
Thanks Bumbley for info

OP

unholy mixture of bacteria, god-know-what chemicals, animal bits & pieces, formaldehyde etc etc

MMR does not contain bacteria, god-knows-what chemicals, animal bits & pieces, or formaldehyde. It protects against measles, mumps and rubella. That is a good thing.

Silverfrog - your GP is a twat. Hope your DD feels better and so do all the other kids at school. Let us know whether at least one of them is properly diagnosed...

thanks Catherina and happy - dd2 is fit and well, and back at school.

dd1 is fighting fit, but is exhibiting some signs of coming down with somethign, and until I can rule in/out mumps then she won't be going to school. but she is not ill as such - a slight temperature, and a snuffly nose and cough.

thank you so much silverfrog & bumbley- agree it is farcical not to have any considered data on MMR diseases- will investigate further & have emailed ben goldacre [him of guardian badscience fame] for his take on it all. will post if he responds.

cathererina- MMR vaccination ingredients: Live measles virus, mumps virus, rubella virus, sorbitol, sodium phosphate, sucrose, gelatine, human albumin, chick embryos, foetal bovine serum (aborted calf baby), human diploid cell (aborted human baby), neomycin (as stated in MMR 2 manufacturer?s data sheet, Merck, Sharp and Dohme LTD).

fine ok so i doesn't contain formaldehyde but wow...

this info was copied & pasted from www.vaccineriskawareness.com/Vaccines-And-How-They-Are-Made

Live measles virus, mumps virus, rubella virus, there is nothing wrong with that

sorbitol which is degraded by the body very nicely

sodium phosphate oh noez, teh toxin

sucrose sugar is evil, we know that

gelatine not in all MMRs

human albumin we are full of that ourselves

chick embryos there are no embryos in the vaccine - that is a typical anti-vaccine spiel intended to put parents off

foetal bovine serum (aborted calf baby) huh? no calf babies in vaccines either

human diploid cell (aborted human baby) gosh, your vaccine vial is getting really crowded - obviously, no babies in vaccines either

neomycin (as stated in MMR 2 manufacturer?s data sheet, Merck, Sharp and Dohme LTD) as a residue of cell culture and about 1/200th of one therapeutic dose

You are fear mongering - the MMR ingredients are well defined, half of what you claim is not in the vaccine, the other half is unproblematic.

www.merck.com/product/usa/pi_circulars/m/mmr_ii/mmr_ii_pi.pdf
This talks about the ingredients. At the top, under Description.
It does mention chick embryo cell culture and fetal bovine serum.
It also mentions human diploid lung fibroblasts which has something to do with an aborted human fetus, doesn't it?

Is rubella notifiable? dd was diagnosed with it last year but nothing done or said. The locum GP was just interested because it was 'classic rubella'. dd was fine as its an extremely mild disease inc hildren.

GPs receive payment for meeting their vaccination targets. They are not, therefore, impartial professional advisors. Pay for an hour with a private paediatrician: it's not that expensive. S/he will(unlike a lot of people on the internet) have access to correct numbers and research.

We did this and were told:

1. The best result for any individual child is that everyone else should be vaccinated but that child should not be: all drugs have risks
2. Because not everyone is vaccinated the risks of not being vaccinated are greater than the risks of vaccination
3. The MMR autism scare was just that. A scare.

From what I read point 2 is actually contentious.
Rates of these diseases started to drop way before vaccines were on the scene as sanitation, overcrowding, poverty etc were dealt with.

sorbitol which is degraded by the body very nicely

sucrose sugar is evil, we know that

IMO sorbitol is evil and sugar isn't if not overindulged.

I think the question of whether reported case figures are accurate is really interesting. I suspect that GPs use vaccination status as a diagnostic tool - certainly I have friends who have been told that their child doesn't have mumps/rubella/whatever as they are up-to-date with all vax, even when said illness is doing the rounds and child has symptoms.

I also have a friend whose unvaxed child had an absolutely classic case of measles - stomach ache, followed by sore throat and Koplik's spots, followed by headache and blotchy rash. GP was adamant that it couldn't be measles as there was 'no measles in the area', gave friend a lecture on herd immunity and her gross negligence in not vaxing, and sent them away with a diagnosis of a 'wild measles type virus' . That was never recorded as a measles case - even though it almost certainly was one.

So, I don't really trust that the figures available are accurate tbh. I wish there were accurate stats out there for parents to look at - I'd like to see information on likelihood of catching disease in vaxed/unvaxed children for example.

KalSkirata - the disease rates stayed the same until vaccines were introduced, mortality sank due to better hygiene and nutrition.

Tabitha8 - there is no dirt in a carrot just because it grew in the ground - equally, there are no fetal or chicken or cow cells in the vaccines, just because at some point they were used in the manufacturing process.