Arguing with DH over whether to vaccinate or not

[LetsGoToTheHills]

This is causing a lot of conflict and we are both really upset about it. He is for, I am against (never had them myself). Both equally passionate. This is my first time on MN and I have found a lot of useful information and interesting viewpoints, but was wondering if anyone has been in a similar situation? How did you manage to resolve it?

What are your reasons? Both of you.

As a child I was taken to Spain by car sitting in the tailgate - no seat, let alone a seatbelt. It didn't do me any harm, but I wouldn't recomend it.

Has anyone in your family got an egg allergy / other reason for not having a vaccine?

Is it all vaccinations or just some? If so why?

Are you prepared for a child to be ill with measels / whooping cough / etc?

Are you prepared for that to be passed on to other children / adults by your child?

Are you prepared to be ill from the disease if your child passes it on to you?

If your child develops measels there is a 1/1000 chance he/she will die. There is also a risk that they will live but be deaf / deafblind / blind / brain damaged. Are you prepared for that?

I'm obviously pro vaccine - it is your choice but please think about it and examine why you feel the way you do and listen to your DPs point of view.

I appreciate you taking the time to reply. I was specifically trying to avoid a vaccine debate per se, as it would just be a repeat of what's already been said in this forum or in my home or at my doctor's and I find people (myself included!) can become quite emotional and judgemental. Thanks anyway.

Why are you so anti any vaccines at all?
Why do you think smallpox has been wiped off the planet?
Why do you suppose your GP is advising you to vaccinate? Do you think you are more medically qualified to decide?
Why do you not see polio victime around any more?
Why do you seldom hear of cases of German measles?
Do you understand why German measles is dangerous to pregnant women?

If there's no compromising then looking at cold hard statistics might help. Just bare in mind when dealing with each other that you are both trying to keep your child as healthy as possible, and this is important to both of you.

Mrs Hoarder, thank you. The problem is finding a non-biased source of statistics. We have a compromise in mind I think. And yes, at least we both care!

Bunbaker, thank you for your reply but I think you might have missed my second post. I have certainly not come here in search of even more conflict!!

If you only want your op answering then the only answer is that one of you will have to massively comprimise.

What about if you had single jabs? Is this over MMR or all vaccines?

You obviously both have your childs best interests at heart - personally I am pro vaccine, and although you are not looking for a debate it is very difficult to not speak up.

Regardless - you both need to individually write down the pros and cons of vaccine, and no vaccine and then swap your lists - to read on your own, and then come together with your thoughts.

It may be that you (as in both of you) didn't know something about one choice or other, and it may tip the balance - it also stops you getting worked up into an argument, where you stop listening.

PERSONAL OPINION ALERT! do think about the wider consequences of your actions, for example - by choosing not to vaccine you are endangering other children as well as your own

Well it's a decision with potentially life or death consequences so, like down's testing/termination etc, you should have agreed on it before having children.

One of you will have to massively compromise. I'd suggest it was you, because his stance puts the health of your child first, but otherwise flip a coin. You won't be persuaded by facts or you'd be pro vaccine and he clearly doesn't want to risk his child being avoidably ill, disabled or killed so he won't change his either.

Vaccinations are the simplest and best form of healthcare there is.

We had our children vaccinated in the middle of the MMR scare and we had individial Mumps, Measels and Rubella jabs done. We also paid for TB jabs as they are not done in our area.

If the individual Mumps, Measels and Rubella had not been available we would have had the MMR done.

I had Measels as a child and it was not nice at all. It can kill.

not been there, both DH and I are pro. Have you tried writing down your arguments? Or finding a compromise (like an altered/selective schedule)? In any case, I hope you'll find common ground on this!

My DP is very anti vaccines and I am not sure. From the research she's done it does sound worrying but without spending hours reading about it myself I can't really argue against it. I want to protect my children from harm but DD1 is displaying some strange behaviour now and DP says it's because I let her have the first round of jabs so now I feel guilty. It's so difficult to know what's best.
I'm afraid I don't have an answer but wanted to let you know you're not alone in this.

I'm not sure whereabouts in the country you are but I arranged a private consultation with this doctor. He's just outside Birmingham, so easy to reach via motorway, and it cost £75. Although he does the single jabs, he is also happy to give advice and recommend which ones can be given on the NHS. We put together a bespoke vaccination plan based on our daughter, family, time of birth, etc. He was very informed and balanced in his discussion and really helped put my mind at rest.

Far better than my own GP who had told me my child would die if she wasn't vaccinated! You won't get a sensible or balanced conversation with an NHS GP. Firstly, they have to toe the partyline, and secondly, they get paid bonuses based on percentage of patients vaccinated.

I am thinking that this could be the middle ground. Either having them all but delayed (which they are by now anyway), for example by the time they start school. I have heard that in Japan they wait until children are four. Or use an independent doctor who could do them separately and to a schedule that felt right to us. We provisionally agreed last night to go for a consultation. I would like our final decision to be little more considered than tossing a coin!

I am grateful for all the constructive suggestions, such as writing things down, and it's also nice to know that there is at least one other couple in a similar position. As I have said, I can find plenty of people to tell me I'm wrong (and the rest) everywhere else...believe me, I wish I had your faith, my life would be a lot easier!

have you read Halvorsen's book? that lays out a lot of the stats for routine jabs, and contains a fair bit of info.

agree that a private consult, to go through options and discuss opinions and viewpoints is probably the way to go. at least that way you will both get listened to, and hopefully gain enough information to reach a decision that is comfortable for you both.

We were a bit worried about the MMR and did not feel that one could take advice from the Gp, since GPs have financial incentives to vaccinate. We had an appointment with a private paediatrician who said:

1. All vaccination carries some risk but it is minuscule
2. From any individual's point of view, the optimal position is not to be vaccinated oneself but for the whole of the rest of the population to be so- that way one takes no risk but benefits from the herd immunity
3. Given the number of people not vaccinating these days one cannot really rely on herd immunity and measles etc can be really nasty.

On the basis of this advice, we vaccinated.

Half an hour of a paediatrician's time (ours was at the Portland in London) is not expensive.

I think Halvorsen's clinic was the one we found, although it is twice the price of the one you went to, worldgonecrazy (I assume you would recommend him? They are fairly equidistant). Has anyone been to Halvorsen? Has he been discredited/'discredited' yet?!

I don't know much about Halvorsen, but if you're looking for unbiased information perhaps a man who sells books and runs his own (for profit) immunisation clinic possibly isn't a great source (since you've already discounted GPs who earn an awful lot less from vaccinating than he does).

Halvorsen is also the only gp who offers both mmr and singles.

he is known to recommend the 'usual' vaccination route if there are no conflicting factors - so yes, he picks up the consult fee, but not the jabs fees.

I was interested in this Halvorsen bloke, so I had a quick look at his site. They don't offer MMR, just the singles, and their explanation page is just a touch dodgy. Spelling aside, they quote paper references in support of their statements, so I picked one at random and hit the BMJ where I discovered that the conclusion by the people who did the study was the opposite of what Halvorsen's site was suggesting.

OP - I think that an afternoon spent on the BMJ site looking at vaccination papers would probably be the most reliable source of info, Halvorsen appears to have an axe to grind himself (as well as profits to be made)

You can find a lot of information from 'The Informed Parent', which pulls in articles and research, for and against, from all over the world.

Halvorsen offers the mmr as a gp, standard nhs practice. he has also offered, as a gp, on the nhs, singles. the only gp to have done so.

and at a private consult, he has recommended standard vaccination routes if no conflicting factors. so clearly not just touting for business for his private clinic.

We saw Dr Halvorsen because we have DC with SEN/ bowel disease. He came across as very genuine and certainly not anti-vax, or even in-it-for-the-money. Following our consultation we had the single measles jab and went back to our own GP later for the Men C/ Hib (which I would have refused had I not spoken to Dr H first).

Without our family history I'd have just gone ahead with all the jabs, but that's what I did with our older children and I'm still wondering whether the problems DS1 has were caused by the 3rd DPT.

Thank you everyone

Just a thought

Do you know how the immune system works?

In very simple unscientific terms (appologies this is written for a child to understand) the human body has a number of foot soldiers that search out and destroy bad things in our bodies. Bad things include some bacterias and some viruses.

When we are ill the bad things are in battle with soldiers. Each disease has its own particular way of attacking. Once there has been an attack the soldiers learn how to combat it and can teach new recruits how to do the same.

vaccination / innoculation does one of two things. It either mounts a fake attack / training exercise or it mounts a small attack that causes minimal disease, both these thing train the soldiers how to react if they come accross it again.

As well as vaccination given in a medical setting, the human body is exposed to natural attacks that may cause illness but may also act as a training exercise.

So you cannot stop your child from comming into contact with bacteria and viruses, some of which will attack your child.

Different populations have different endemic disease, ie the disease is always around, there is always someone with it and it passed from one person to another without everyone getting ill at the same time.

When a disease is endemic your child will either

a) not have come into contact with it yet
b) have come into contact with it and developed an immune response
c) come into contact with it and be ill

a - will not happen forever

b - you can partially control

c - you can partially control

The descisions I have made about my own vaccinations (as an adult) is based on the above.

Is the disease I am considering vaccinating against endemic? If it is not then there is little point vaccinating eg small pox and rabbies - the former has been erradicated and the second is not endemic in the UK. I worked in a healthcare setting with TB patients, so for my personal enviroment TB was endemic so I not only had BCG but was tested to make sure it was working.

OK, so assuming something is endemic and I will, sooner or later, come into contact with it. Also assuming I have no medical condition that will affect the vaccination / my health.

If I'm vaccinated I will be exposed to it directly (live vaccine) or something that creates the same response. As it is (usually) an injection it will also contain some other chemicals, it may have been grown in eggs. Am I happy about the other ingredients going into my body?

As a result if I come into contact with it in a 'natural' enviroment after that my body will know what to do to fight it.

If I'm not vaccinated then I may still just develop an immune response if I come in contact with it, or I may develop the disease. What are the effects of the disease? More importantly what about any complications?

eg Polio is usually a very mild infection, most people who have had polio don't even know they had the disease as it causes no symptoms for most people. However if it enters the central nervous system it can lead to paralysis. Talk to people in their 70s and they all have horror stories.

In the end it is down to you and your DP. In adults flu vaccine is recomended for certain groups because for them flu can kill.

For people with healthy immune systems and with no other factors such as asthma it is not recomended because

a) it doesn't kill

b) having flu gives you immunity for three years, a flu jab just for one season.

In certain parts of the country many children are not vaccinated aganist certain diseases and they are becoming prevelant, so your own, and your child's exposure is higher. Your child will have higher exposure when he/she starts interacting with other children such as at nursery.

Remember this does not have to be all or nothing, you can look at each vaccine / disease individually. Is it endemic in my child's enviroment? How easy is it to catch? What are the complictions if any of the disease / vaccine? What treatment(s) are available for the disease?

As stated before I'm pro vaccine but it is really up to you and DP. But I have to say the worst reason for not vacinating came from a neighbour who wouldn't vaccinate because it would make the baby cry. IMHO not a good enough reason.

Fair enough then, but he really needs to update his consultancy site then, because to someone who hasn't met him it comes across very badly.