To not let dd have the HVP vaccination?

[DogGoneMad]

Dh and I really disagree on this.

Ah, another factual story. Full of evidence and objective reporting.

Did you mean this then? I assumed you were being sarcastic.

A lot of claims made in that report with no evidence to back it up.

Oh, I see you didn't and you were. Math used the phrase "made up" and you supported her ridicule of reported adverse events.

Therefore I respectfully requested you to tell me what you would say to - let's see - two thousand parents reporting similar adverse reactions with temporal correlation.

I get from your post that you are angry but is it cause Ive called your bluff and you cant prove it??

I don't understand why you wrote this. No, I'm not angry, I don't know when you called my bluff and what can't I prove.

Wrt: millions of people talk about vaccine success - do they? but I'll believe you and I respect their experiences. Millions talk of the dangers of disease - yes they do and I respect their experiences. Now do you think you could accord the same respect to other people who record their experiences and say - this is not reported as a vaccine injury, this is not recorded as a vaccine reaction.

In the light of a non-recorded vaccine reaction which took a decade and a half to reach compensation stage.

Can you address these points please. The way we do this in a normal exchange is to not use lots of rhetoric and invective or to talk about large scale studies but to address the points calmly and clearly and directly.

What I am getting is that you don't want to do that, which is entirely your prerogative, but I'm not going to pretend you've responded to me.

PIMS, how can you get "you obviously haven't read my links" from "thanks, that is an interesting read"?

seriously. I'd like to know just how you go about making the improbable leaps that you do?

Have a
Not enjoying the aggression tonight!

No aggression, PIMS, just a genuine question.

but another one that you wish to avoid answering, clearly.

I do wonder why you feel the need to disrupt threads in this way.

Well stop being aggressive then. There's an easy solution. No one else is being aggressive.

Bluberties, what does 'temporal correlation' mean, scientifically speaking?

And let's be factual here in our reporting:
'Blueberties Tue 04-Oct-11 10:17:58
Comparing under-reporting to conspiracy theories about 9/11 is misleading'
I was comparing under-reporting theories (as posted by Leonie) to conspiracy theories about 9/11 and the assassination of JFK. Because the under-reporting allegation is a theory.

Callisto, the vaccine protects against the majority of strains of HPV that cause cancer.

Silverfrog, youngest DD is 10. I had her vaccinated at age 4.

The type of precautions taken in the US with a chicken pox case depends in part on where the case occurs. If in an area with a lot of recent immigrants from parts of the world where vaccination does not routinely occur and where there are therefore lots of adults who may or may not be immune, then a chicken pox case could be treated as a serious disease as adults catching the disease can have more serious cases and experience worse complications. Adults catch about 5% of cases in the US but they account for half of the deaths related to the disease. In the case of a highly contagious disease that can have a disproportionate effect on certain parts of a population, precautions such as isolation in hospital are necessary and vaccination in the US makes a lot of sense given the existence of pockets of people who could experience the worst of those complications. Thinking here of the large Somali population in Minneapolis-St. Paul, but there are pockets of immigrants from all over the world in cities in the US and even the loss of one breadwinner could devastate a family. Adult males and non-immune pregnant women tend to have a high mortality rate.

Here are some complications of chicken pox (lifted from wikipedia)
'Damage to brain: encephalitis, microcephaly, hydrocephaly, aplasia of brain
Damage to the eye: optic stalk, optic cup, and lens vesicles, microphthalmia, cataracts, chorioretinitis, optic atrophy
Other neurological disorder: damage to cervical and lumbosacral spinal cord, motor/sensory deficits, absent deep tendon reflexes, anisocoria/Horner's syndrome
Damage to body: hypoplasia of upper/lower extremities, anal and bladder sphincter dysfunction
Skin disorders: (cicatricial) skin lesions, hypopigmentation'
Newborns who develop the disease are at risk from pneumonia.

In addition, the link between chicken pox and childhood stroke is being investigated 'Conclusion?In young children with AIS, there is a 3-fold increase in preceding varicella infection compared with published population rates, and varicella-associated AIS accounts for nearly one third of childhood AIS. Varicella-associated AIS has characteristic features, including a 2-fold increase in recurrent AIS and transient ischemic attacks. Varicella is an important risk factor for childhood AIS.'

This document from the NY State Department of Health Bureau of Immunizations shows how outbreaks of mumps in children and children and young adults can have a serious effect on some sections of the population. The DCs' high school in the US was closed for a period during a mumps outbreak a few years ago.

When you decide not to vaccinate, you have not only your own child's welfare to consider, but also the welfare of other people's children, or other people's families.

"the vaccine protects against the majority of strains of HPV that cause cancer." I understand this. I also understand the point that the article makes about nature abhorring a vacuum. I am not at all convinced that this vaccine is a good thing. It won't get rid of all of the cancer-causing HPV viruses, and it won't even get rid of the few that it is vaccinating against because only girls will get it. So the whole herd immunity and eradicating the disease argument just doesn't exist in this case. My DD might have this vaccine and still get cervical cancer in later life. So, as it stands, no she won't be having this vaccination.

Math that's great - if you are not criticising the idea that there is significant under-reporting, but just the people who believe that - I would welcome your agreement with me.

If you are criticising the idea that there is significant under-reporting, and disagree that this is the case, would you mind responding to the questions and points I posted to Pims earlier? Thanks. If you don't want to look back then give me the nod and I will copy and paste.

We can talk about chicken pox if you like but this is really about HPV.

Bb, your points don't seem to make a question.
Can u make a list of clear questions you want addressed and I'll answer.

Math, do you play tennis? I've never had great ball skills

I do play tennis, PIMs. More singles than doubles though.

Well said maths

Callisto, if your daughter is unlucky enough to develop a strain of HPV that could have been prevented by the vaccine I hope you are ready to have a difficult conversation with her about why you withheld your permission.
The evidence supporting the vaccine is huge and will be there for your daughter to see in black and White when she does (and she will) go looking for it.
I lost my best friend to a preventable form of this cancer at a really young age, she left behind a 5 year old child.
The vaccine has demonstrated a 95-100% efficacy in preventing this strain.

A horrible outcome for anyone, but can you imagine if her mother had withheld her permission for a vaccine that had such a High chance of preventing her HPV and therefor cancer?
My mum withheld anti biotic treatment from me as she didn't believe the risks the medics outlined and thought they would do more harm than good. I now have irreversible kidney failure and may eventually need transplant or dialysis.
She will never forgive herself for that decision.

No, my posts are not abrasive and I have not read further than that insult math. Pims posts are astonishing - I have just made some points about reporting and under-reporting and she has flown off the handle.

I am very happy to read your posts Math if you re-post without the insults.

Pims I am not going to play games with you: my posts are easy to understand for anyone who can read English.

I have posted an example - one example - of under-reporting and denial. There are many others: all those parents could come here and post their personal experiences. You have been accorded respect and credence for your personal experence - I wonder how you would react to other people posting their - rather different - personal experiences and how that would change your view about under-reporting?

Re: your question earlier about temporal correlation: you and I both know what it is: if you have a point to make about it would you do so, as I don't really see the point of game playing around this serious subject. Thanks.

Actually I can just respond to your post up to the insult.

I am criticising the idea that there is under-reporting until someone can prove to me that this occurs.

I have just given you one example, vindicated after a decade and a half. Obviously it's not the only one. Pims has brought two personal experiences here to the thread and she has been afforded respect and credence for those experiences. Obviously there are many thousands of parents who could bring here their personal experience of vaccine damage here -- I would like to know if they'd be afforded the same respect if they did.

I am also criticising the idea that someone can allege there is under-reporting, with allegations about the scale, without offering proof, on a thread where an OP expressed questions about a vaccine.

What kind of proof would you need? I don't think the kind of proof you want can be supplied. For example, Robert Fletcher's case was 15 years in the making. Certainly it wasn't identified by any post-vaccine monitoring system. So many cases take so long, and so many people give up in the face of threats, financial and physical exhaustion and so on. It's very easy for you to then dismiss that as "not proved" because there was no court finding. The only evidence we have then is personal experience (obviously that would be combined with other evidence of regression, clinical and sub-clinical and so on).

That's why I'm asking my question. Very often there will be no court finding, and they won't show up on any study. In fact the only place they might show up is in the yellow card reporting system - dismissed by you and Pims as "anyone can write anything there" - and on vaccine injury support forums.

So I want to know if you dismiss all those. I would like to know that if those parents came here, and told their story, and linked to the medical records, and linked to videos of their child before and after, and gave detailed diaries of illness and regression after vaccination - I would like to know what your response would be and what would be going through your head as you look at that evidence.

Would you say "you've made all that up?"

Nice attempt at a guilt trip PIMS, you really are a piece of work.

Maths, the vaccine may be available for boys, but unless there is blanket vaccination of boys and girls against all of the cancer-causing strains of HPV from now until it is eradicated, it is pointless trying to compare it to any other mass vaccination, where the whole point is herd immunity and we see things like measles nearly vanishing from the UK.

Anyway, I didn't want to get involved in a discussion about HPV vaccines, I will make my own mind up at the time. I just wanted to point out the NS article.

I've not flown off any handle, please stop making such accusations. You would do well to consider the tone of ur own posts before pointing the finger
I was asking you to clarify your question.
I'm sorry but you are so busy flinging insults and accusations that it's difficult to find ur point.
Could you clarify the year that your example took place? As I said the system has changed to allow patients to report.
As this took place 17years ago I take it the vaccine was not HPV therefor do you have ANY objective contemporaneous information relevant to the vaccines we are discussing?

Callisto, no guilt trip. Just laying out a very possible scenario to you. A difficult conversation that you will need to have based on a very real outcome.

And thanks for linking the article, but it is biased and has ignored the most up to date evidence that demonstrates the safety and efficacy of this vaccine. I do hope you can make your mind up based on the best information and not just because you have read someone elses opinion. There is a HUGE difference and a difference that your dd would question if they were unlucky enough to contract a preventable form of HPV.
just be absolutely sure that the info you base this decision on is the best possible available. That article is not

Pims: the issue is under-reporting and denial. Therefore it is relevant. I am not flinging insults: I think you are engaging in projection and transference on that front. My posts are very clear: my points are very clear.

Here is the case.

We, at least I, am talking about under-reporting and denial with regard to vaccines. Math has also been talking about this and there has been ridicule of under-reporting and claims, even, of over-reporting.

There are many cases of under-reporting wrt to HPV vaccination too: Ashleigh Cave is one case I posted earlier up the thread. You have dismissed adverse events reports regarding HPV vaccination as "only reported to VAERS and not proved". No doubt if I posted many, many others you would accuse me of scare-mongering - in other words, another way to dismiss them. It would, however, be possible for me to do so.

My point is very clear.

These are individual cases. When you point to large scale epidemiological studies you are talking about individual cases grouped together. My point is that these individual cases do not appear in these studies. They are denied. They only appear on adverse events reporting systems - which you dismiss - and adverse event support forums - which you dismiss. You have demanded, and been accorded, respect for your personal experiences but you seem to deny the same to others.

I'm finding it hard to understand what you do not understand about this.