Debate on Vaccines

[Emsyboo]

I have seen a few threads where mums have an opinion pro or con vaccine and asking for more information I would like to know your reasons for being one or the other.
My MIL is very anti vaccine and told me 4 out of 30 children die from vaccinations - I don't believe this to be true think their may be a decimal point missing although I have seen some posts from people who seem to have backed up information about vaccines.

I am pro vaccine but like to see both sides before I make a decision so if anyone has any information pro or con and more importantly has info to back up I would be really interested.

Thanks

DH had it as a child. So, he isn't immune?

I think having had any whooping cough vaccination does make a significant difference. Its highly contagious (and a Notificable Disease to the authorities for that reason and the fact it can be so dangerous) and the only people I was in contact with that got it were those who weren't immunized as a child. (My husband didn't get it, other family that were immunized didn't get it - other children's parents didn't get it. 2 other children got it but not so badly. One (now ex) friend's husband got it and had to have 2-3 months off work which had disastrous consequences for them. It really is a horrid disease. I'd certainly be in favour of adult boosters, and googling this it does seem that this is being called for at times in order to save babies lives (but presumably too costly) .Not many die but there are deaths each year in young babies that could be prevented.

It was shard to get diagnosed in the initial stages as its quite rare in the UK, and my doctor hadn't seen it before and even when I first took her into A and E they'd only seen 2 full blown cases in the last 20 years. They weren't sure they believed me until they waited until she stopped breathing... and then obviously did. It IS growing however in some areas in Australia and America - and surprise surprise it's in areas where there is resistance to childhood immunisation. (where my mil is from there have now been several deaths since the outbreak) There are quite a few public health campaigns to resist this, and calls to vaccinate earlier in Australia

Here is a link to a video of a 2 year old with whooping cough (I was just googling for an audio file) www.whoopingcough.net/video%20whooping%20cough.htm and I can assure you its sadly far far worse in a newborn.

imagdeine, it is up to you to call a healing method inefficient when a friend of mine made two cysts which the doctor wanted to eliminate in an operation disappear just within six days - and best of all - without the slightest side-effects because all she did was using her colour light therapy at home

emsis. My Mil said it was awful when her kids had it. She didnt get them immunised as there was a big scare in the 70's about the vaccine. I had it but the kids dad and his sister didnt.

Here some info about the 70's whopping cough

www.abpischools.org.uk/page/modules/infectiousdiseases_immunity/immunity4.cfm?coSiteNavigation_allTopic=1

Its in the middle of the page

For all those who want to force other people to have their children vaccinated, have a look at this website: thinktwice.com/stories.htm

Are you ready to take responsibility for that if you tell and force other people what they have to do in their lives?

We certainly can ignore these facts or pretend that they do not exist because they do not fit into our belief system - but that does not mean that those facts and real stories will go away.

rosi - wie würdest Du damit leben, wenn Dein Kind zwei Babies mit Masern ansteckt und die deshalb sterben?

Gooseberrybushes,

I am about half way through with that long thread. WHAT do you want me to look out for? I see a lot of back and forth between anecdotes = data - anecdotes ≠ data; Wakefield has been discredited - Wakefield has been replicated.

No links to any science yet, as far as I can see, but a lot of opinion and swearing. Very unproductive (instructive about the kind of strong feelings on the board, but that is about it). Please, could you point me to the epiphany-triggering posts that you expected me to see?

cheers

oh, now I have come across the copy and paste of the articles of Wakefield's colleagues and buddies who "independently" replicated his work (NOT).

If it is of any help at all I don't especially care what you believe.
It is, as they say, a free country.
Do as you chose based on your knowledge and experience. I shall do as I see fit and rejoice that it is no one elses business.

Anyone who wants to force me to vaccinate my dd is welcome to do so if they will in turn come and help me care for my disabled son.

Community responsibility only seems to cut one way doesn't it?

Catherina - I abandoned you. Deliberately. Believe what you like. There's plenty on that thread to give you pause. I appreciate that people have faith in vaccines. But I'm uninterested in people who say there is nothiing at all to indicate there may be a problem and ridicule and scorn those who don't. It isn't true that there is nothing to indicate there is not a problem: never was, and never will be. I think there's a debate to be had: there's peer reviewed evidence to support a conversation. But outright dismissal - sorry.

You ought to bear in mind that some of the conversations you may have will be with people who had faith in vaccines - and had it profoundly damaged for very good reasons. You will not change your mind: I will not change my mind back.

Well done for reading.

As I said, I have read A LOT of papers and court procedings to come to my convictions, I have talked to die hard anti-vaccinationists, I have been harrassed and threatened by some of them, even. I have talked to mums whose children had recognised and compensated vaccine damage and I have talked to parents whose children died/are dying because of vaccine preventable diseases. I have talked to parents who converted from anti-vax to pro-vax and from very pro-vax to quite anti-vax, and I am very good friends with a lot of mums who don't vaccinate. Overall, I would consider my position to be exceptionally well researched. You may certainly choose not to engage in further communication with me, but it is NOT because I have not done my homework.

You dont realise how many people have been damaged by vaccines. I didnt. I have mine vaccinated and dont know anyone who has been left damaged by them. If i had researched it instead of just doing it i would have seen how many children there are. I dont think it would have made me not vaccinate due to what happened within my family but i would also not say to anyone they are wrong for not vaccinating. Its parental choice but i do agree that people have to be made aware of the damaging affects vaccines can cause in some children before they choose to do it. I was never given any iformation, just that it was the right thing to do.

I have read some very disturbing stories recently about the HPV vaccine. Having 3 dd's who at some point will be offered it i will have to make a decison in the future.

Fifi - where did you research that?

I am not anti-vaccine and I get very bored of discussion being conducted on that basis.
Some of us would love to be able to vaccinate our children but our children and vaccination is a disasterous combination.

If you are well-researched you will not feel the need to associate people who question vaccine safety with end-of-the-worlders.

I too feel bored by that.

Just a quick word about HPV - abnormal cells can happen without the virus being present. Having an HPV vaccine will help prevent one cause of cervical change but it will not guarantee the cervix does not change for other reasons.

Having the vaccine should not make girls and women complacent about regular smear tests.

Leading a (relatively) healthy lifestyle and in particular not smoking at a young age is very important for a healthy cervix.

I am always astounded by the arrogance of posters who can categorically state that what happened to my daughter didn't happen at all - nd all without meeting her, me, any of the doctors who have treated her, or reading her records.

honestly, some of you should setup stall as prophets - you seem to be remarkably good at tellign what did and did not happen in a given set of circumstances, and also predicting what will never happen to other people's children (again, without ever meeting them or knowing anythign about their medical history)

I also hate the anti-vaccine claim. I am not, and have never been, anti-vaccine. I woudl not be in the position I am in today (and more importantly dd1 woudl not be) if I had been.

Catherina, I find it interesting you have so many friends who are non vaccinators etc, yet your whole attititude on here comes across as not listening to anyone, refuse to listen to anyone who disagrees with you and that you know better than anyone else on here. I have no doubt you have done your own personal research, you do not come across as someone who knows nothing at all, but you DO come across as a bully yourself, that you see yourself as superior to anyone who may post on here and not have the same views as you.

FWIW, I too have met/come across severe anti vaccinators and also the same hideous people that are vaccinators - you get severe people on both sides, lots of whom can be unpleasant - but that is not exclusive to vaccination discussions!

I am not anti vaccination, but my son is currently vaccine free. But we went to see the specialist at the hospital and lots of other people too before making the decision we currently have. I also spent time researching the diseases and how to care for children who have them etc, for I am not naive enough to believe my son may never contract any of these illnesses.

But really I wanted to say how YOU come across on here, sarcastic and generally not very nice towards people who think differently from yourself - wether you intend to or not.

Out of interest, did you only join MN to post on vaccination threads?

I think the arrogance thing is fairly typical of the science/medical establishment mindset.

I think it's probably part of the reason why a proportion of the population find modern medicine to be insufficient for their needs and turn to alternative and complementary therapies instead.

I've been patronised by doctors on more than one occasion. Is it any wonder people seek out practitioners with a better attitude to help them with their problems?

completely agree re: arrogance.

I have had nurses refuse to let me see patient information leaflet inserts form vaccines because it woudl only lead to me asking questions ,

and dd2's paed tried to refuse to tell me what her test results were, so that he could try to badger me into agreeing to vaccinate her. when pressed, he told me his thoughts (which coincided with mine, right down to the query over varying symptoms), and once that was out in the open, agreed that vaccination was not the best course of action given what the results were suggesting.

but his original line was: what she doens't know won't harm her, and she might then vaccinate ehr child (despite this being contra indicated) - an extraordinary position for a medical professional to take.

but then he wouldn't be the one picking up the pieces, would he? what difference would it have made to him, personally? absolutely none. but my dd is not just a name on a bit of paper. she is a real person, with a whole life ahead of her. and it does not make medical sense to vaccinate her - both because of family history and because of her own medical history.

Oh - and maxy - I think there's more than one poster on this thread who's on MN just to push their vaccination agenda. You know who you are.

Catherine - where did i reasearch what?

Oh sure illumniasam! I just wanted to point out this little experience here!

My DH who was on the fence a little more than me when it came to vaccinations was outraged after we came away form seeing the head of vaccinations at our hospital. I won't put what he called him, but he was so arrogant and rude and very condescending. Not because he tried to convince us it was the way to go, he didn't once say that it was actually, but his whole attitude stank. He gave us no confidence whatsoever. His secretary had all but said to me "run along now there's a good girl and get him all jabbed up" and tried to scare monger me into telling me my baby will die from whooping cough if I did not vaccinate him - I did tell her I did not have the pertuiss vaccine either. It wasn't that I ever doubted it could be a problem ever, but that that was the ONLY choice and that he WOULD die if i did not vaccinate.

I spoke to my lovely GP about this and he did mention something about not needing to speak to the monkey - though to be fair, after we saw the organ grinder, I did wonder if they took turns at each others roles

Just so everyone knows manufacturers are legally obliged to make sure every patient/carer can have a leaflet - pharmacists/nurses etc who refuse to provide them just need to be reminded to read the Medicines Act - it usually works.

Vaccines (and I am pro vaccination, I do believe the drop in infant mortality data from the 1930's onwards etc) are medicines and any medicine that works may have 1) common but mild side effects and 2) rare but deeply upsetting adverse effects.

For a vaccine to be licenced the impact on the community of significantly reducing/eliminating the disease must massively outway the known risks. The system for tracking safety of a vaccine or medicine when used in the mass population is vastly better than just 10 years ago. Manufacturers and regulators are constantly learning to improve the products.

Are vaccines 100% safe - no, no one can say this.
Is the use of vaccines effective to reduce infant mortality or morbidity - yes.

Did I take the H1N1 vaccine - yes, but only the one used on millions, not the other one only used in a few thousand! Having seen a woman in intensive care last christmas 20 weeks pregnant with twin go from OK, to a pressurised breathing hood, to incubation to ECMO to death - yup I damn well did have it before getting pregnant.

I can't get my head around anyone thinking that vaccines can be licenced if they are more dangerous than the diseases they seek to reduce/eliminate. I repeat though, I am not saying they are adverse effect free, just that these are outweighed by the gains to society.