Debate on Vaccines

[Emsyboo]

I have seen a few threads where mums have an opinion pro or con vaccine and asking for more information I would like to know your reasons for being one or the other.
My MIL is very anti vaccine and told me 4 out of 30 children die from vaccinations - I don't believe this to be true think their may be a decimal point missing although I have seen some posts from people who seem to have backed up information about vaccines.

I am pro vaccine but like to see both sides before I make a decision so if anyone has any information pro or con and more importantly has info to back up I would be really interested.

Thanks

You certainly did not answer my questions. You didn't even try. I think I would have noticed. I gave up trying to establish a response, remember? Please answer them now.

You can post your point about Wakefield again if you like. I just got back to your insulting and abusive post and lost interest in going back further - abuse and dishonesty aren't very conducive to that "fair" debate you seem so keen on.

and for your information THIS was my first post on this thread

PIMSoclock Sun 10-Jul-11 15:27:50
To those of you who are arguing against vaccination.
Are you suggesting that we stop vaccinating at all?
Consider this very real apocalyptic scenario.
If an epidemic a Spanish flu was spreading and as you watch BBC news u can see the death toll rising. Bearing in mind that Spanish flu affects and can kill you fit people.
Would u take a vaccine if it was offered?
What about if the health authorities told you there may be mild side effects from the jab?
As you look round about you, more and more people are contracting the virus and deteriorating to their death.
What if the risk of death from anaphylaxis was 2% (significantly more than most current vaccines)
Would you take it then? Or would you continue to argue the point that vaccines are ineffective and cause more damage than they fix.
Would you want it for ur children? Or would you take ur chances with Darwin and hope for the best?

Vaccines save lives and are effective and when faced with the reality of Amy deadly epidemic we would all be fighting tooth and nail for anything to protect ourselves and our families.

Not to stray off the subject, but lets be transparent about this!

he live attenuated measles vaccine was introduced in 1967 and by 1985 had prevented about 52 million cases of measles, 5,200 deaths, and 17,400 cases of mental retardation attributable to measles [3]. During the years 1989 to 1991, measles cases started to increase again, and the United States Public Health Service responded by recommending a two-dose immunization schedule [4]. The rationale for the second dose of the measles vaccine was not to serve as a booster but rather to immunize the five to 20 percent of people who had not responded to the first dose of the vaccine.

This two-dose approach appears effective. In 1990 a peak of 27,000 measles cases were reported in the United States; in 2006, only 45 cases were reported. Of the vaccine eligible subjects (ie, born after 1957 and older than 12 months) who developed measles, 69 percent either did not know whether they had been vaccinated or had not received two doses of the vaccine [5].

While indigenous measles is rare, continued protection of adults and children remains important, particularly since imported cases still have the potential to serve as a major source of future exposures. Adults with measles are at increased risk of mortality compared with older children, and measles in pregnancy is associated with premature labor and spontaneous abortion [6].

Like measles, the incidence of mumps in the United States fell dramatically after the introduction of the live virus vaccine in 1967. There was a resurgence of mumps in 1987 to 13,000 cases, probably because mumps immunization was not recommended by the American College of Pediatrics until 1982, leaving a cohort of young adults, born after 1956 but before 1982, at risk. In 2006, 6339 cases of mumps were reported in the US. Eighty-four percent of these cases occurred in six states - Iowa, Kansas, Wisconsin, Illinois, Nebraska and South Dakota [7]. The median age of cases with mumps was 22 and almost all cases occurred despite receipt of 2 doses of MMR vaccine. Factors such as close contact in college dormitories have been suggested as a reason for the 2006 outbreak of mumps.

As a result of the outbreak, ACIP recommendations for prevention and control of mumps have been updated (www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5522a4.htm). Evidence of immunity through documentation of vaccination is now defined as one dose of MMR for preschool-aged children and adults not at a high risk for exposure and infection and two doses of live mumps vaccine for school-aged children (ie, grades kindergarten through 12), and adults at high risk for exposure and infection (ie, healthcare workers, international travelers, and students at post-high school education institutions). Additional recommendations for outbreak control include administering a second dose of MMR for preschool children and adults not at high risk for exposure and infection if these persons are part of a group that is experiencing an outbreak.

Continued protection of adults remains important because the most serious complications of mumps arise more frequently in adults than in children, including neurologic complications, orchitis leading to sterility, and fetal death.

While adults born before 1957 are considered immune to measles and mumps, rubella immunity is not assured for adults. Rubella immunity is established by a positive serologic test or documented evidence of rubella or MMR immunization on or after one year of age. A clinical diagnosis of rubella is not reliable. The rubella vaccine was effective in reducing cases from 57,600 in 1969 to 213 cases in 1996 [6]. There was a brief resurgence in rubella in 1990 to 1991, with 40 to 45 percent of cases occurring in adults and teenagers aged 15 and older. Disturbingly in 1991, there was also an increased incidence of congenital rubella syndrome, representing a failure of the immunization campaign. In 1992 to 1994, eight percent of young adults were estimated to be susceptible to rubella [6]. Data from NHANES III indicated that persons born from 1970 to 1974 had the lowest rate of protection against rubella (78 percent), further highlighting the need for continued vigilance in immunization of children and adults against this disease [8]. Even though rubella is rare (only 8 cases were reported in 2006), continued protection of adults (particularly women of childbearing age who could become pregnant) and children is essential if the most important consequences of rubella (congenital rubella syndrome, miscarriages, and fetal deaths) are to be eliminated.
Add message | Report | Message poster PIMSoclock Wed 20-Jul-11 11:01:38
Bloch AB, Orenstein WA, Stetler HC, et al. Health impact of measles vaccination in the United States. Pediatrics 1985; 76:524.
Centers for Disease Control (CDC). Measles prevention. MMWR Morb Mortal Wkly Rep 1989; 38 Suppl 9:1.
Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC). Epidemiology of measles--United States, 2001-2003. MMWR Morb Mortal Wkly Rep 2004; 53:713.
Watson JC, Hadler SC, Dykewicz CA, et al. Measles, mumps, and rubella--vaccine use and strategies for elimination of measles, rubella, and congenital rubella syndrome and control of mumps: recommendations of the Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices (ACIP). MMWR Recomm Rep 1998; 47:1.
Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC). Brief report: update: mumps activity--United States, January 1-October 7, 2006. MMWR Morb Mortal Wkly Rep 2006; 55:1152.
Dykewicz CA, Kruszon-Moran D, McQuillan GM, et al. Rubella seropositivity in the United States, 1988-1994. Clin Infect Dis 2001; 33:1279.

The 'evidence'
Chapter 1:

Wakefield's paper reported that all 12 children were previously normal

The cause for inferring causality hinges on this, and is untrue as subsequent review of the children's medical records have shown.

The paper reports that Nine children had a clear diagnosis of regressive autism. This is categorically untrue Only one child had a clear diagnosis and three of these children clearly did not.

The paper reports that these children were referred through 'normal' channels. Very few of these children were referred and in fact were recruited from as far a field as America

Child 1: concerns raised to GP at 9 months re possible deafness (one of the first potential signs of autism) not vaccinated till 12 months

Child 2: variations in the testimony given by the mother and symptoms reported in Wakefields paper.
Child two was the only child to have a clear diagnosis of regressive autism despite the claims of the paper.

Child 4, (who received the vaccine at age 4 years), Child four was kept under review for the first year of life because of wide bridging of the nose, He was discharged from follow-up as developmentally normal at age 1 year.?
Medical record showed that his pre-MMR years recorded multiple concerns over his head and appearance recurrent diarrhea developmental delay general delay and restricted vocabulary And although before his referral to Wakefield his mother had inquired about vaccine damage compensation his files include a
His medical files also report of a very small deletion within the fragile X gene
and a note of the mother?s view that her concerns about his development had begun when he was 18 months old.

Child 8 had significant developmental delay before MMR at 18 months and had only vocalized 2-3 word and had a coarctation of the aorta surgically corrected at 13 months which her paediatrician placed side by side with the delay and dysmorphism

Child 11: recruited from California. Parents agreed that the reported time of symptom appearance documented in Wakefeilds report was inaccurate. The paper reported that they began at 15 months. (1 week after the vaccine) however medical record show that they began at 13 months (before the vaccine was given.

2 of the children were brothers who had a history of siezures and bowel problems before the MMR vaccine. One also had a diagnosis of aspergers prior to MMR administration

a further child had been investigated for the possibility of apergers by the royal free before the MMR administration

Shall I go on to look a the HUGE conflicts of interest in this paper

This is case and point why causality can not be assumed and has to be proven. This paper was flawed. There is no credible evidence that can be taken from it

10%:

Central nervous system: Fever ≥38.9˚C (≥102˚F) (22%)

Local: Injection site reaction: Pain/tenderness/soreness (22%), erythema (14%)

1% to 10%:

Central nervous system: Irritability (7%)

Dermatologic: Measles-like rash (3%), varicella-like rash (2%), rash (2%), viral exanthema (1%)

Gastrointestinal: Diarrhea (1%)

Local: Injection site reaction: Swelling (8%), bruising (2%)

Respiratory: Upper respiratory tract infection (1%)

Oh that was you - and I gave a rather cogent response - viz, to paraphrase:

"No. Why would you say such a thing unless you are setting up a straw man argument?"

Tabitha copied your post earlier - help, it's mmr day, my child's due to wake up in five minutes - quick yes or no (to paraphrase)

what was that all about? playacting? why?

EASLES, MUMPS, AND RUBELLA

Which adults are at risk and is protection important to healthy adults? ? The live attenuated measles vaccine was introduced in 1967 and by 1985 had prevented about 52 million cases of measles, 5,200 deaths, and 17,400 cases of mental retardation attributable to measles

Bloch AB, Orenstein WA, Stetler HC, et al. Health impact of measles vaccination in the United States. Pediatrics 1985; 76:524.

The benefits of vaccines are clear. As illustrated below, several infectious diseases that were once associated with significant morbidity and mortality have been almost completely eliminated through the development, distribution, and almost universal administration of protective vaccines:

Wild-strain poliomyelitis has been eliminated from the Western hemisphere. No case has been reported in the United States since 1979. The last known case in the Western hemisphere was reported in Peru in 1992.
The number of reported measles cases in the United States has fallen substantially since the early 1990s, when the uniform recommendation was made that all children, adolescents, and young adults without history of natural measles disease receive two doses of measles vaccine.
Between 1987 (when the Hib conjugate vaccine was introduced in the United States) and 2000, the number of invasive Hib cases in children younger than five years of age declined by >99 percent [
With the declining incidence of these once-common infectious diseases, parents of young children may no longer appreciate the potential severity or dire consequences of the illnesses. Parents who lack such appreciation may be willing to forego immunizations for their children, particularly if unproven risks (eg, autism/ASD) are highly publicized. When this occurs, immunization rates decline, and outbreaks of infectious diseases, such as measles and pertussis, may occur with significant morbidity and mortality
As an example, between 35 and 100 of every 100,000 patients with measles disease develop acute encephalitis, which has a mortality rate of 10 percent and causes neurologic damage in 25 percent of survivors . In addition to acute encephalitis, meningitis, subacute sclerosing panencephalitis, and acute disseminated encephalomyelitis have been reported . Even in uncomplicated cases of measles, as many as 50 percent of patients may have EEG changes

Id be happy to email you the full paper and supporting references if you want?

GB, you carry on crying troll and questioning my motivations and I will continue to present clear and concise information so that a reader can make up their own mind rather than just trusting that 'there is a lot of evidence'

Ill be here if you have any other sensible questions

I will come back on the detail for sure - but just need to point out quickly (and AGAIN) that Wakefield did not and has never claimed proof. It is you that claims proof.

And the research you would like to see. Can you detail that?

Conflicts of interests - I do hope you're not talking about the supposed measles vaccine patent. Please - must know better than that.

But you have lied on this thread - just admit it and I'll stop saying it. You lied to - what ? What did you lie for?

Gooseberrybushes Tue 19-Jul-11 11:32:43
"There is currently no evidence for a link."

Now that's what I call absolutist. There's MASSES.

Remember that thread - you said you were looking for links to scientific papers? Didn't look that hard huh? They're there.

Not least thousands and thousands of parents reporting a link. Once might be called a coincidence. Ten times could be carelessness. Thousands and thousands? Whoops sorry - I forgot that you KNOW they're all wrong. Every last one of them. You KNOW that. So what they say doesn't count.

Thanks for your constructive help. I have looked at the two scientific papers that I can find suggesting a link and given a very convincing arguments why they are flawed (supported by the GMC and several critiquing consultants.

Here is a list of references that when critiqued show that MMR and regressional autism are separate issues:
Department of Developmental Services. Changes in the population of persons with autism and pervasive developmental disorders in California's developmental services system: 1987 through 1998. A Report to the Legislature. California Health and Human Services, March 1, 1999. Available at: www.dds.ca.gov/Autism/pdf/autism_report_1999.pdf. (Accessed on January 18, 2006).
Dales L, Hammer SJ, Smith NJ. Time trends in autism and in MMR immunization coverage in California. JAMA 2001; 285:1183.
Madsen KM, Hviid A, Vestergaard M, et al. A population-based study of measles, mumps, and rubella vaccination and autism. N Engl J Med 2002; 347:1477.
Madsen KM, Lauritsen MB, Pedersen CB, et al. Thimerosal and the occurrence of autism: negative ecological evidence from Danish population-based data. Pediatrics 2003; 112:604.
Kaye JA, del Mar Melero-Montes M, Jick H. Mumps, measles, and rubella vaccine and the incidence of autism recorded by general practitioners: a time trend analysis. BMJ 2001; 322:460.
Yeargin-Allsopp M, Rice C, Karapurkar T, et al. Prevalence of autism in a US metropolitan area. JAMA 2003; 289:49.
Fombonne E. Epidemiology of pervasive developmental disorders. Pediatr Res 2009; 65:591.
McCormick MC. The autism "epidemic": impressions from the perspective of immunization safety review. Ambul Pediatr 2003; 3:119.
Wakefield AJ, Murch SH, Anthony A, et al. Ileal-lymphoid-nodular hyperplasia, non-specific colitis, and pervasive developmental disorder in children. Lancet 1998; 351:637.
Wakefield AJ, Montgomery SM. Autism, viral infection and measles-mumps-rubella vaccination. Isr Med Assoc J 1999; 1:183.
Bernard S, Enayati A, Redwood L, et al. Autism: a novel form of mercury poisoning. Med Hypotheses 2001; 56:462.
Bernard S, Enayati A, Roger H, et al. The role of mercury in the pathogenesis of autism. Mol Psychiatry 2002; 7 Suppl 2:S42.
Geier, MR, Geier, DA. Thimerosal in childhood vaccines, neurodevelopment disorders and heart disease in the United States. J Am Physicians Surg 2003; 8:6.
Geier MR, Geier DA. Neurodevelopmental disorders after thimerosal-containing vaccines: a brief communication. Exp Biol Med (Maywood) 2003; 228:660.
Iñiguez C, Mauri JA, Larrodé P, et al. [Acute transverse myelitis secondary to hepatitis B vaccination]. Rev Neurol 2000; 31:430.
Herroelen L, de Keyser J, Ebinger G. Central-nervous-system demyelination after immunisation with recombinant hepatitis B vaccine. Lancet 1991; 338:1174.
Marshall E. A shadow falls on hepatitis B vaccination effort. Science 1998; 281:630.
Classen JB, Classen DC. Clustering of cases of type 1 diabetes mellitus occurring 2-4 years after vaccination is consistent with clustering after infections and progression to type 1 diabetes mellitus in autoantibody positive individuals. J Pediatr Endocrinol Metab 2003; 16:495.
Classen, DC, Classen, JB. The timing of pediatric immunisation and the risk of insulin-dependent diabetes mellitus. Infectious Dis Clin Pract 1997; 6:449.
Byrd, RS, Segman, M, Bono, M. Report to the Legislature on the principal findings from the epidemiology of autism in California: a comprehensive pilot study. University of California, Davis, M.I.N.D. Institute, October 17, 2002. Available at: www.ucdmc.ucdavis.edu/mindinstitute/newsroom/study_final.pdf. (Accessed on March 8, 2006).
Croen LA, Grether JK, Hoogstrate J, Selvin S. The changing prevalence of autism in California. J Autism Dev Disord 2002; 32:207.
Wing L, Potter D. The epidemiology of autistic spectrum disorders: is the prevalence rising? Ment Retard Dev Disabil Res Rev 2002; 8:151.
Shattuck PT. The contribution of diagnostic substitution to the growing administrative prevalence of autism in US special education. Pediatrics 2006; 117:1028.
Uhlmann V, Martin CM, Sheils O, et al. Potential viral pathogenic mechanism for new variant inflammatory bowel disease. Mol Pathol 2002; 55:84.
Retraction--Ileal-lymphoid-nodular hyperplasia, non-specific colitis, and pervasive developmental disorder in children. Lancet 2010; 375:445.
Deer B. How the case against the MMR vaccine was fixed. BMJ 2011; 342:c5347.
Murch SH, Anthony A, Casson DH, et al. Retraction of an interpretation. Lancet 2004; 363:750.
Stratton, K, Wilson, CB, McCormick, MC (Eds). Immunization Safety Review: Measles-Mumps-Rubella Vaccine and Autism. National Academy Press, Washington, DC 2001.
Offit, PA. Vaccines and autism. Immunization Action Coalition, www.immunize.org (www.immunize.org/catg.d/p2065.htm). (Accessed on January 18, 2006).
Fombonne E, Chakrabarti S. No evidence for a new variant of measles-mumps-rubella-induced autism. Pediatrics 2001; 108:E58.
Offit PA, Coffin SE. Communicating science to the public: MMR vaccine and autism. Vaccine 2003; 22:1.
Taylor B, Miller E, Lingam R, et al. Measles, mumps, and rubella vaccination and bowel problems or developmental regression in children with autism: population study. BMJ 2002; 324:393.
Evans AS. Causation and disease: a chronological journey. The Thomas Parran Lecture. 1978. Am J Epidemiol 1995; 142:1126.
Immunization Safety Review: Vaccines and Autism. A report of the Institute of Medicine. The National Academy Press, Washington, DC 2004.
Kawashima H, Mori T, Kashiwagi Y, et al. Detection and sequencing of measles virus from peripheral mononuclear cells from patients with inflammatory bowel disease and autism. Dig Dis Sci 2000; 45:723.
Fernell E, Fagerberg UL, Hellström PM. No evidence for a clear link between active intestinal inflammation and autism based on analyses of faecal calprotectin and rectal nitric oxide. Acta Paediatr 2007; 96:1076.
Bitnun A, Shannon P, Durward A, et al. Measles inclusion-body encephalitis caused by the vaccine strain of measles virus. Clin Infect Dis 1999; 29:855.
McQuaid S, Cosby SL, Koffi K, et al. Distribution of measles virus in the central nervous system of HIV-seropositive children. Acta Neuropathol 1998; 96:637.
Martin CM, Uhlmann V, Killalea A, et al. Detection of measles virus in children with ileo-colonic lymphoid nodular hyperplasia, enterocolitis and developmental disorder. Mol Psychiatry 2002; 7 Suppl 2:S47.
Afzal MA, Ozoemena LC, O'Hare A, et al. Absence of detectable measles virus genome sequence in blood of autistic children who have had their MMR vaccination during the routine childhood immunization schedule of UK. J Med Virol 2006; 78:623.
D'Souza Y, Fombonne E, Ward BJ. No evidence of persisting measles virus in peripheral blood mononuclear cells from children with autism spectrum disorder. Pediatrics 2006; 118:1664.
Katz SL. Has the measles-mumps-rubella vaccine been fully exonerated? Pediatrics 2006; 118:1744.
Hornig M, Briese T, Buie T, et al. Lack of association between measles virus vaccine and autism with enteropathy: a case-control study. PLoS One 2008; 3:e3140.
Cass H, Gringras P, March J, et al. Absence of urinary opioid peptides in children with autism. Arch Dis Child 2008; 93:745.
Nagamitsu S, Matsuishi T, Kisa T, et al. CSF beta-endorphin levels in patients with infantile autism. J Autism Dev Disord 1997; 27:155.
Gillberg C, Terenius L, Lönnerholm G. Endorphin activity in childhood psychosis. Spinal fluid levels in 24 cases. Arch Gen Psychiatry 1985; 42:780.
Gillberg C, Terenius L, Hagberg B, et al. CSF beta-endorphins in childhood neuropsychiatric disorders. Brain Dev 1990; 12:88.
Feldman HM, Kolmen BK, Gonzaga AM. Naltrexone and communication skills in young children with autism. J Am Acad Child Adolesc Psychiatry 1999; 38:587.
Willemsen-Swinkels SH, Buitelaar JK, van Engeland H. The effects of chronic naltrexone treatment in young autistic children: a double-blind placebo-controlled crossover study. Biol Psychiatry 1996; 39:1023.
Willemsen-Swinkels SH, Buitelaar JK, Weijnen FG, van Engeland H. Placebo-controlled acute dosage naltrexone study in young autistic children. Psychiatry Res 1995; 58:203.
Baird G, Pickles A, Simonoff E, et al. Measles vaccination and antibody response in autism spectrum disorders. Arch Dis Child 2008; 93:832.
Schonberger LB, Bregman DJ, Sullivan-Bolyai JZ, et al. Guillain-Barre syndrome following vaccination in the National Influenza Immunization Program, United States, 1976--1977. Am J Epidemiol 1979; 110:105.
Murphy TV, Gargiullo PM, Massoudi MS, et al. Intussusception among infants given an oral rotavirus vaccine. N Engl J Med 2001; 344:564.
Miller E, Waight P, Farrington CP, et al. Idiopathic thrombocytopenic purpura and MMR vaccine. Arch Dis Child 2001; 84:227.
Taylor B, Miller E, Farrington CP, et al. Autism and measles, mumps, and rubella vaccine: no epidemiological evidence for a causal association. Lancet 1999; 353:2026.
DeStefano F, Bhasin TK, Thompson WW, et al. Age at first measles-mumps-rubella vaccination in children with autism and school-matched control subjects: a population-based study in metropolitan atlanta. Pediatrics 2004; 113:259.
Mäkelä A, Nuorti JP, Peltola H. Neurologic disorders after measles-mumps-rubella vaccination. Pediatrics 2002; 110:957.
Patja A, Davidkin I, Kurki T, et al. Serious adverse events after measles-mumps-rubella vaccination during a fourteen-year prospective follow-up. Pediatr Infect Dis J 2000; 19:1127.
Peltola H, Patja A, Leinikki P, et al. No evidence for measles, mumps, and rubella vaccine-associated inflammatory bowel disease or autism in a 14-year prospective study. Lancet 1998; 351:1327.
Smeeth L, Cook C, Fombonne E, et al. MMR vaccination and pervasive developmental disorders: a case-control study. Lancet 2004; 364:963.
Fombonne E, Zakarian R, Bennett A, et al. Pervasive developmental disorders in Montreal, Quebec, Canada: prevalence and links with immunizations. Pediatrics 2006; 118:e139.
Mrozek-Budzyn D, Kiełtyka A, Majewska R. Lack of association between measles-mumps-rubella vaccination and autism in children: a case-control study. Pediatr Infect Dis J 2010; 29:397.
Honda H, Shimizu Y, Rutter M. No effect of MMR withdrawal on the incidence of autism: a total population study. J Child Psychol Psychiatry 2005; 46:572.
Wilson K, Mills E, Ross C, et al. Association of autistic spectrum disorder and the measles, mumps, and rubella vaccine: a systematic review of current epidemiological evidence. Arch Pediatr Adolesc Med 2003; 157:628.
Farrington CP, Miller E, Taylor B. MMR and autism: further evidence against a causal association. Vaccine 2001; 19:3632.
DeStefano F, Mullooly JP, Okoro CA, et al. Childhood vaccinations, vaccination timing, and risk of type 1 diabetes mellitus. Pediatrics 2001; 108:E112.
Infections and vaccinations as risk factors for childhood type I (insulin-dependent) diabetes mellitus: a multicentre case-control investigation. EURODIAB Substudy 2 Study Group. Diabetologia 2000; 43:47.
Heijbel H, Chen RT, Dahlquist G. Cumulative incidence of childhood-onset IDDM is unaffected by pertussis immunization. Diabetes Care 1997; 20:173.
Karvonen M, Cepaitis Z, Tuomilehto J. Association between type 1 diabetes and Haemophilus influenzae type b vaccination: birth cohort study. BMJ 1999; 318:1169.
Hviid A, Stellfeld M, Wohlfahrt J, Melbye M. Childhood vaccination and type 1 diabetes. N Engl J Med 2004; 350:1398.
Graves PM, Barriga KJ, Norris JM, et al. Lack of association between early childhood immunizations and beta-cell autoimmunity. Diabetes Care 1999; 22:1694.
Blom L, Nyström L, Dahlquist G. The Swedish childhood diabetes study. Vaccinations and infections as risk determinants for diabetes in childhood. Diabetologia 1991; 34:176.
Hyöty H, Hiltunen M, Reunanen A, et al. Decline of mumps antibodies in type 1 (insulin-dependent) diabetic children and a plateau in the rising incidence of type 1 diabetes after introduction of the mumps-measles-rubella vaccine in Finland. Childhood Diabetes in Finland Study Group. Diabetologia 1993; 36:1303.
Levitsky LL. Childhood immunizations and chronic illness. N Engl J Med 2004; 350:1380.
Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC). Progress toward elimination of Haemophilus influenzae type b invasive disease among infants and children--United States, 1998-2000. MMWR Morb Mortal Wkly Rep 2002; 51:234.
Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC). Progress toward eliminating Haemophilus influenzae type b disease among infants and children--United States, 1987-1997. MMWR Morb Mortal Wkly Rep 1998; 47:993.
Smith MJ, Ellenberg SS, Bell LM, Rubin DM. Media coverage of the measles-mumps-rubella vaccine and autism controversy and its relationship to MMR immunization rates in the United States. Pediatrics 2008; 121:e836.
The measles epidemic. The problems, barriers, and recommendations. The National Vaccine Advisory Committee. JAMA 1991; 266:1547.
Feikin DR, Lezotte DC, Hamman RF, et al. Individual and community risks of measles and pertussis associated with personal exemptions to immunization. JAMA 2000; 284:3145.
White CC, Koplan JP, Orenstein WA. Benefits, risks and costs of immunization for measles, mumps and rubella. Am J Public Health 1985; 75:739.
Gangarosa EJ, Galazka AM, Wolfe CR, et al. Impact of anti-vaccine movements on pertussis control: the untold story. Lancet 1998; 351:356.
Friederichs V, Cameron JC, Robertson C. Impact of adverse publicity on MMR vaccine uptake: a population based analysis of vaccine uptake records for one million children, born 1987-2004. Arch Dis Child 2006; 91:465.
Johnson RT, Griffin DE, Hirsch RL, et al. Measles encephalomyelitis--clinical and immunologic studies. N Engl J Med 1984; 310:137.
Weibel RE, Caserta V, Benor DE, Evans G. Acute encephalopathy followed by permanent brain injury or death associated with further attenuated measles vaccines: a review of claims submitted to the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program. Pediatrics 1998; 101:383.
Roos RP, Graves MC, Wollmann RL, et al. Immunologic and virologic studies of measles inclusion body encephalitis in an immunosuppressed host: the relationship to subacute sclerosing panencephalitis. Neurology 1981; 31:1263.
Brooks, GF, Butel, JS, Morse, SA. Paramyxoviruses and rubella virus. In: Jawetz, Melnick, & Adelberg's Medical Microbiology, 21st ed, Butler, JP, Ransom, J, Ryan, E (Eds), Appleton & Lange, Stamford, CT 1998. p.50.

Id be happy to help you access them

I have not lied, stop making ridiculous accusations

conflict of interest:
HE was not contracted to have any clinical contact with patients, he breached this
He accepted money in the sum of £50,000 from legal aid
He paid children at a birthday party to donate blood
He recruited patients through and anti vaccine group
Ones of his patients father was the MD of the company that would have manufactured an alternate vaccine!!

fact!

do yourself a favour and comeback with some credible evidence that is published and accepted by ANY medical body

Child 1: developed normally and regressed soon after MMR with clearly delineated onset with loss of words, comprehension, social interaction plus secondary fecal and urinary incontinence, passage of blood and undigested food in faeces. Treatment of gut symptoms resulting in behavrioural improvement.

Child 3: normal development until 2 days after MMR vaccination when head-banging started, fever, rash and one month later hand flapping, aggression and deterioration in speech

Child 4: bridging of nose noted by Wakefield, who also notes that he was followed for evidence of congenital disorder which was later excluded. He denies none of this. Wakefield records ALL previous illnesses and symptoms. Diarrhoea became a problem between 1-1.5 after single measles vaccine, worsened significantly after MMR at 4. AT the same time he "disappeared" and lost all skills and communication.

more to follow

So when u came on here with your text speak and your exclamation marks!!!!! and ur sunday mmr appointment wanting to know whether to vaccinate - all that was true?

GB your evidence re those children is unfounded. I could say that child 1 developed the ability to play the piano.. doesnt make it true.
I can link and reference to official reports the information I gave...can you??

Please link some credible evidence

I never asked if I should vaccinate, I asked for a show of hands and a summary of your thoughts

and for your information THIS was my first post on this thread

PIMSoclock Sun 10-Jul-11 15:27:50
To those of you who are arguing against vaccination.
Are you suggesting that we stop vaccinating at all?
Consider this very real apocalyptic scenario.
If an epidemic a Spanish flu was spreading and as you watch BBC news u can see the death toll rising. Bearing in mind that Spanish flu affects and can kill you fit people.
Would u take a vaccine if it was offered?
What about if the health authorities told you there may be mild side effects from the jab?
As you look round about you, more and more people are contracting the virus and deteriorating to their death.
What if the risk of death from anaphylaxis was 2% (significantly more than most current vaccines)
Would you take it then? Or would you continue to argue the point that vaccines are ineffective and cause more damage than they fix.
Would you want it for ur children? Or would you take ur chances with Darwin and hope for the best?

Vaccines save lives and are effective and when faced with the reality of Amy deadly epidemic we would all be fighting tooth and nail for anything to protect ourselves and our families.

Not to stray off the subject, but lets be transparent about this!

There's plenty on the other thread which for a know-nothing like you claimed to be is a very good place to start. I'm not linking again. I said that right from the beginning. Take it or leave it.

The legal aid claim is ridiculous: all experts in a trial are paid. Nothing like the conflict of interest Deer has - a journalist who makes his money from the story instigating a complaint to the GMC?

He did not pay children to donate blood - wrong - already addressed on thsi thread - please read before asking for more stuff - what's the point if you don't read what's already been given?

the alternative vaccine would not have been in his name - he worked for the Royal Free - the patent was in the name of the Royal Free - and it wasn't a vaccine anyway.

"Are you suggesting that we stop vaccinating at all?"

Er - yes - I've already repeated my response. Which was basically

No. What's your point.

Please stop the accusations.
MN advises that if you suspect someone is a troll to report them, so if you feel that strongly please do so.
I am happy to co operate with any questions they have.

Sorry, Im stil waiting for some credible evidence that has not been withdrawen and is no longer supported by 10 of its 12 authors

Pims - you're a fake. I'm going to spend some time with my children and come back later to respond about the other children.

And fyi: most of that is in records from the children's GPs and neurologists.