Debate on Vaccines

[Emsyboo]

I have seen a few threads where mums have an opinion pro or con vaccine and asking for more information I would like to know your reasons for being one or the other.
My MIL is very anti vaccine and told me 4 out of 30 children die from vaccinations - I don't believe this to be true think their may be a decimal point missing although I have seen some posts from people who seem to have backed up information about vaccines.

I am pro vaccine but like to see both sides before I make a decision so if anyone has any information pro or con and more importantly has info to back up I would be really interested.

Thanks

MEASLES, MUMPS, AND RUBELLA

Which adults are at risk and is protection important to healthy adults? ? The live attenuated measles vaccine was introduced in 1967 and by 1985 had prevented about 52 million cases of measles, 5,200 deaths, and 17,400 cases of mental retardation attributable to measles

Bloch AB, Orenstein WA, Stetler HC, et al. Health impact of measles vaccination in the United States. Pediatrics 1985; 76:524.

thanks for posting though

Pims - definitely troll-like behaviour - at least I'm honest

Why do you have to hide?

Im not really sure what you mean
and I am hiding nothing. I am being entirely transparent and answering all questions asked succinctly.

Now if you could address the extensive evidence I have presented, it would be much appreciated

Seeker, if you have read what I have written in the past you will know the answer.

Are you not prepared to answer my questions, rosi7?

As we hope you've already found out, the vast majority of Mumsnet discussions are genuinely informative, supportive and friendly (even when we all disagree with each other!) but, from time to time, we are visited by "trolls" for whom friendly supportive chat is definitely not on the agenda. (For those who don't know, a troll is someone who poses as someone else in order to stir up trouble, fulfil their own perverted agenda, or just for the hell of it.)
If you suspect someone of being a troll, please don't accuse them publicly on the discussion thread (if you're wrong, you could cause untold hurt; if you're right, you'll merely be giving them just the kind of attention they're after).

I am not posing as anyone, I am a parent and I work in the medical profession. I have made no secret of that. I am concerned at the way some posters were giving unfair opinions on a delicate subject and keen to see that this is explored in a fair and transparent manor.

Dont shout 'troll' just because I am able to answer your questions and give reasonable evidence.
If MN HQ wants to look into this, I am happy to fully cooperate

Did you not read my answer?

"GB is emotional, and her posts are full of stamping and head banging and eye rolling and personal slander.
The information she shares is opinionated and lacks substance and integrity. It is obvious that she copies most of her answers from you, but failes to apply them in the correct context.
I believe that's what makes her dangerous to the lay reader. She lacks the ability to be objective and balanced and responds with emotion and personal insults when someone disagrees with her.
A bully by any other name."

I just saw this.

What "information" are you talking about? I don't think I've shared a great deal - most of my argument has been trying to establish what you actually think yourself (and to be honest not having very much luck with it)

"lacks substance and integrity" - what are you talking about? what do you mean? did you just look these words up in a dictionary?

"copies most of my answers from silverfrog" - why? because I'm a normal person and ready to accept that I don't know as much about the detail of gut disorder as someone else who has done more research? what has been copied from silver exactly?

I think perhaps you're not reading my posts and just trying to find something to have a go at me about because I said silver knows more than me about gut disorder

"dangerous"? how? unlike pro-vaccinists I don't tell people what to do - in fact you may remember that when you were pretending to be a mum on mmr day I didn't tell you not to do it, I told you to do more reading, and I said your child would probably be fine

"lacks the ability to be objective" actually I have spent most of my conversation with you trying to establish what you think - and laying out strands of argument for you to chose from - what's become clear during that process is that you don't understand the implications of your beliefs and the reason for that is your own inability to examine them objectively

I haven't really been insulting - where is that exactly

I haven't called you childish, a bully, over-emotional or dangerous - somebody else is throwing those names around and I think you've been doing it for some time

oh yes that would be you

and when we look on the subject of being 'friendly and supportive', I think this is a quality that a lot of your posts sadly lack GB. I have never made any 'claims' or accusations and only given personal opinion when it has been asked for. What I have presented is a great deal of scientific evidence to support the statements that I make.

Unfortunately your threads are peppered with the phrase 'there is loads of evidence' and 'im deferring to silverfrog on this'
This isn't demonstrating that your knowledge of this is as sound as you are claiming.

I am happy to debate this topic as the thread title suggests, but even debates need rules to ensure fairness. the last time I checked this didnt involve personal attacks, eye rolling, head banging, feet stamping pulling faces and persistently misquoting people including accusing them of using words which are plainly not in ANY of their posts

Perhaps it is you who are the troll since you seem incapable of addressing the objective evidence yourself and you seem to be anything but supportive.

you came here pretending to be an innocent mum on mmr day with five minutes before your child woke up, wanting advice on yes or no

that's troll-like

could you please answer my post re the Wakefield paper?

Thanks

I never pretended to be anything and I never asked for advice, I asked for opinion. There is a HUGE difference

and the evidence re the efficacy of the MMR at reducing the incidence of measles

Oh and I'd be really interested if you could find in ANY of my posts the bit where I tell them what to do

That is unless you are referring to me saying that parents should be made aware of the scientifically tested risk versus known benefit in ALL vaccinations so they can make an informed decision

My apologies if that offended you

they are not peppered with the phrase -I will defer to silver

I said silver knew more about gut disorders and would probably know more about the kind of research needed

nor are they peppered with the phrase - there is loads of evidence - without backing it up

I've repeatedly linked to a thread absolutely chock full of links and (arguments for both sides) which anyone genuinely interesting (as opposed to making up a story in order to incite an argument) can look at

you came here pretending to know nothing - now that thread is a really good start for someone who knows nothing

if you are in reality a medical researcher or doctor, that is a rather different thing - but then honesty begets honesty, I've always found

let's be clear - when somebody makes a point and you address it, then they don't respond they just move on to something else and you demolish that, and tehy don't respond and just go round in circiles back to the first point , that's a head-to-desk moment for anyone

It is absolutely typical of you that you would rather argue over personal parts of each post and not address any of the objective evidence

really ? you never pretended to be a mum on mmr day (sunday) wondering what to do?

because your first post kind of gives that impression I think most people would agree

It is absolutely typical of you to have ignored almost every single point and every single argument addressed to you so far. Maybe ten pages of you ignoring what's been said?

I am a mother first and foremost, I really dont get the problem here

and sorry, between load, plenty, an abundance of evidence etc you use the phrase 10 times on this thread

and Larry does the same - never answers any points

there are posts I made five, six pages ago you didn't respond to

Having difficulty finding the same number of references and or sources of evidence to support what you are saying.

What exactly are you saying??

GB you are avoiding mine, I answered your questions. You didnt believe my answers were correct. I have now given you evidence to support that they are

Please answer my points now

Yes - with descriptions of the evidence when asked for it and reference to that thread when you ask for links. Problem?

(you counted)