Debate on Vaccines

[Emsyboo]

I have seen a few threads where mums have an opinion pro or con vaccine and asking for more information I would like to know your reasons for being one or the other.
My MIL is very anti vaccine and told me 4 out of 30 children die from vaccinations - I don't believe this to be true think their may be a decimal point missing although I have seen some posts from people who seem to have backed up information about vaccines.

I am pro vaccine but like to see both sides before I make a decision so if anyone has any information pro or con and more importantly has info to back up I would be really interested.

Thanks

crapola, I know a few....

Question to those who know that all of the doctors they know vaccinate their own children. Did you actually ask them if this is true or is this your assumption?

I discussed it with mine.

so just one? And did he actually say that he did vaccinate his children?

no, actually, quite a lot. A lot of my friends and colleagues are MDs and have kids, so I discussed this with them (>10). Then my first GP, our first pediatricians in Switzerland, my OB, my next GP, the next two pediatricians in US, as well as some MD friends with kids in US, then my GP in Germany, the kids' 3 pediatricians in Germany, then with 4 GPs in UK. Total sample well over 20. The flu shot was the only vaccine I have personally seen doctors occasionally skeptical about (actually, just today, never pediatricians though, they all gave their kids the flu shot). All other shots everyone got, both for themselves and their kids.

Fact is that doctors refused to vaccinate their patients so they had to go somewhere else. When years ago Loiber rejected to believe in the vaccination model any longer he lost his license. It did not happen to those rejecting swine flu vaccination. So the development shows that there is more willingness to accept the critical viewpoint.

Rosi, one very anti-vaccine doctor only goes to prove that one doctor is against vaccination, not that vaccines are dangerous. One smoking doctor does not prove that smoking is harmless, just that doctors are humans and can be irrational. Loibner, who has been an anti-vaccine activist for decades, is really not suitable as a proof for a recent trend in vaccine refusal amongst doctors.

Catherina,
This does not answer my question whether you actually asked them if they did vaccinate their children or not.

I have a fair few friends that are medics.....hospital/consultant/registrars and GPs, it's so unheard of that any dr would not vaccinate that all assume with phrases like 'you know what us drs are like....we vaccinate'.

What sort of Dr would not vaccinate? one that has no faith in the medical profession.

Catherina, it seems that you have not read the article I quoted

it's not unheard of for a doctor to not vaccinate (certainly not blanket vaccinate without research).

I know a few. GPs, paeds, surgeons - form all walks, really. same as any other profession.

and it doesn't mean that they have no faith in the medical profession - why would it? - it means they do not trust the vaccine schedule. a completely different thing.

CrapolaDeVille,

that does not answer my question.

'one that has no faith in the medical profession.'
This is an assumption that those doctors have no faith in medical profession. We need to distinguish between the medical profession and the pharmacological model.

Rosi - I asked them all in one form or another (some I asked, some mentioned it themselves, with some I had discussions). My "n" is well over 20 and they all vaccinated themselves and their kids with all standard vaccines, apart from the flu (a couple of them).

you say The above article (my comment: in the SZ) shows you that only around 15% of doctors were vaccinated against swine flu.

That is correct.

you also say There were also doctors who refused to vaccinate at all.

That is NOT stated on that page.

I was referring to the article I mentioned earlier not the one you mention where they talk about the overall development in terms of vaccination.

And no - this is not stated in that page as I later wrote about the change I feel that is happening in Germany not referring to anything specifically and not quoting anything.

Okay so are we talking MMR? because I am.

Caterina: I do see - you chose your targets as the "easiest" because other points being made by other posters are rather trickier to refute. It's your choice: I think it's an arrogant choice but hardly surprising from such an absolutist.

crapola: if you mean re: doctors not vaccinating then yes, amongst others. I know more than one doctor who has not given their children the mmr.

rosi, could you please post the link again?

To make it clearer, Catherina, I referred to an article talking about the change that has happened in this field over the past twenty or something years in Switzerland and Austria mainly. But all you picked upon was the reference to Buchwald, Loiber and Ann...

The article about swine flu is a different one.

The news that there were doctors who did not vaccinate against swine flu were on the news at that time. I did not refer to a specific source.

Catherina, if you go back in the thread you will find it.

Gooseberry, sorry - loads of allegations, but no specifics:

"Caterina: I do see - you chose your targets as the "easiest" because other points being made by other posters are rather trickier to refute."

However, I have asked you repeatedly what specifically you wanted me to address and you came back with vagueness. It seems you don't want to discuss content. That is ok. You have decided not to like me, that is totally your prerogative. You have just called Rosi "easy target" - not nice

Rosi, just post the link again - I must have overlooked it. Thank you :)

Would you clarify by "none of what they say has any value whatsoever."

Who are you talking about?

There are other points: many of them. You are choosing to overlook them. I don't blame you.

For example: your claim, and the claim by others, about rigorous testing to the highest safety levels. It is not difficult to challenge this : it's been done, and you have no response.

Your claim : nothing of value. Do you mean those who question vaccine safety? I highly doubt that even those who question vaccines, who also believe in the Mayan calendar, have "nothing of value to say" about vaccines. Would you clarify what you mean by this? It's plainly not true but you don't withdraw it.