Debate on Vaccines

[Emsyboo]

I have seen a few threads where mums have an opinion pro or con vaccine and asking for more information I would like to know your reasons for being one or the other.
My MIL is very anti vaccine and told me 4 out of 30 children die from vaccinations - I don't believe this to be true think their may be a decimal point missing although I have seen some posts from people who seem to have backed up information about vaccines.

I am pro vaccine but like to see both sides before I make a decision so if anyone has any information pro or con and more importantly has info to back up I would be really interested.

Thanks

Seeker, but if this is true - then please explain to me why they are still giving me pills in order to solve a health problem knowing that these pills will have side-effects which might cause another problem somewhere else in my body.

The way the material world works is a mystery. Particularly the way that our minds (which include "the heart") interact with it. Recent developments in quantum mechanics have begun to look at the issues but so far, there are only theories, not certainties. In fact, "certainty" in the material world is becoming somewhat illusory, if some of these theories end up to be true. Or is it that all of the theories are true, it just depends who is reading the theory at the time?

When scientists say that "there is no evidence", they are just saying that some things cannot be measured satisfactorily under classical scientific methodology. That does not mean that they do not work or have no value. It just means that they do not work for some people, or more specifically, for those with a classical scientific mindset.

imagdeine, 'It would be lovely if all this alternative and dietary stuff could be proved to be really useful. It would be brilliant for all kinds of reasons. However there is no evidence to support it.'

Certainly there is no evidence for you because you refuse to look at reality where real people had real illnesses and were really cured. Like the cases mentioned by Dr. Baldwin. If you refuse to check the information but claim that all of that does not exist, then what you say has has little value to me.

Do you actually have experience with this 'alternative' stuff or is your judgment based on mere assumptions?

'Nobody called you a "stupid ignorant"'
True, those words have not been used, but Catherina mentioned quite frankly that all the vaccine opponents are 'spinner' a German term which probably means something similar to nut case in English, and that it is more or less below her dignity to be involved with people like me. - I would not want to decide which term is the more respectful one.

I would like to say that I do think it's very off to insult someone in another language on this forum. It's off to insult them in English as well of course, but at least everyone else can see you're insulting them - but to insult someone in a language that is only known well enough to the insulter and the insultee is both sly and really arrogant, for want of a better word. I know there will be a more appropriate word for the mindset that Catherina has but I can't think of it this late at night (for me).
Don't do it again or I will report you.

nicht lügen Rosi - I just called the particular people you linked to "Spinner". I am explicitly excluding parents who want more info, or have been scared by the spinner faction from vaccinating. But the ones who run websites claiming that chicken pox is a separation shock and that there are no pathogenic viruses, well...

Thumbs - I did not call Rosi any names, unless she is part of the "Impfkritik" website. Both Rosi and Gooseberry keep alleging that I am generally calling all vaccine-critically minded people names. I am not, but it is a typical anti-vaccine strategy to put someone into the defensive with wrong allegations (the "when did you stop beating your wife" kind of argument).

to add:

it also deters from the topic at hand: vaccines saves lives and vaccine critics often operate under assumptions that are not consistent with intersubjective reality.

catherina - please stick to English then, so we can see for ourselves. And you don't need to call people names to insult them.

Nothing more arrogant than middle class parents thinking they know better than the medics. I don't know a single Dr that doesn't vaccinate their children.

will do thumbs - it serves better to let Rosi post undisturbed anyway to show the mindset.

Catherina, your German translation caused the confusion as it is not precise in expressing what you wanted to say then. But actually - do you have any right to label any people in this way?

CrapolaDeVille,
'I don't know a single Dr that doesn't vaccinate their children.'
This is not true. More and more doctors in Austria and Switzerland are turning away from vaccination and start giving presentations on the damaging effect of vaccination.

And I do know quite a number of mainly English doctors who feel very unhappy in their job as they start realizing that they have been degraded to servants of big pharmacy.

Rosi - you are right - noone should just plainly be labelled "loon", independent of their mind set and how far off the factual world they are. I apologize, that was out of line.

More and more doctors in Austria and Switzerland are turning away from vaccination and start giving presentations on the damaging effect of vaccination.

needs citations

www.zeitenschrift.com/magazin/41-impfungen.ihtml

www.aerzte-ueber-impfen.org/articoli/i-zwang.html

Rosi, only one MD is named in that article, Dr. Buchwald, and he is dead. Anita Petek-Dimmer was no doctor (and also recently died). Do you have any link to an "increase" in doctors speaking out against vaccinations in Austria and Switzerland? I may have missed it, but I have not seen a recent increase, just the usual suspects (most of whom are anthroposophically motivated, not per se anti-vaccine and affiliated with the "Doctors for individual vaccine decisions" rather than with AEGIS).

www.grenz.tv/index.php?option=com_community&view=groups&task=viewdiscussion&groupid=4&topicid=11&Itemid=138

Loibner had his license revoked and has been anti-vaccine forever, no recent increase there (he was one of the usual suspects I refered to above).

yes only one - if you start digging around you will find plenty more. Beyond that - the claim was that there is not a single doctor who would not vaccinate his children. - At least we have found one - true or not?

the "Grenz.tv" (fringe.tv) link speaks about Loibner and his lost license, but no increase in vaccine critical doctors...

so there are a few doctors, on the "fringe" who are fundamentally anti-vaccine and active in the respective anti-vaccine groups. I know a smoking pulmonologist. And? All doctors I personally know vaccinate their kids.

I do know about the development here in Germany where fact is that more and more parents are critical towards vaccination and are more and more respected in their decision.

www.sueddeutsche.de/wissen/schweinegrippe-vorlaeufige-bilanz-wie-schlimm-war-es-1.64315-4

The above article shows you that only around 15% of doctors were vaccinated against swine flu. There were also doctors who refused to vaccinate at all.

So one cannot say that it is 'middle-class parents' knowing better than the doctors who are critical.

But they are there

Swine flu vaccination wasn't even generally recommended for all age groups. You are really grasping at straws here, Rosi - where are the "increasing numbers of doctors" who don't vaccinate their children against DTaP and MMR for example?