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Help me make sense of MMR - hype or theory

941 replies

felicity10 · 17/02/2011 20:53

OK, so I've been through a few pages of previous posts, I must be missing something because I can't make sense of it!

DD is 1 and I've had a letter about the vacs from the GP. I've heard about the MMR in the news few years ago and about the link to autism, but I just would really value your views.

Single vacs with no mumps or the MMR? Confused Can anyone point me in the direction of key MMR issues?

I just don't want to get to the gp's and then feel like I am getting bullied into having the mmr - it is normally very no nonsense nurses who barely speak english, so will be unlikely to give me a clear answer as to any risks.

I am amazed that we have this lack of clarity in the UK.

Many thanks in advance!

OP posts:
rightpissedoff · 21/02/2011 11:07

in fact these ridiculous straw man sausages/crashed car arguments get right on my tits

you are not talking to children

being patronising isn't an argument, it's just being patronising

rightpissedoff · 21/02/2011 11:07

Well winter there was quite a lot of tosh in your post there.

bubbleymummy · 21/02/2011 11:08

You are right baggedandtagged - I should have said dismissed as a coincidence. That is offensive.

Yes silverfrog you mentioned earlier that it wasn't mmr - I'm not sure if everyone picked up on it though.

silverfrog · 21/02/2011 11:12

WriterofDreams - please, stop with the temporal "symptoms appear at the same time mmr is given" stuff.

if this was true of the mmr given at 18 months, is it still true now it is given at 13 monhs? and is it true of mmr boosters, which have also cause issues?

if so, how come these symptoms appear at whichever time mmr is given? is it 8 months they appear? or is it 13 months? or is it 4 years? or is it after mmr?

as to the rest of your post. you do know that autism is not just one thing? that there are many types of autism, and many routes into it?

yes, a genetic link has been found for some cases and types. but that does not even begin to cover the restof the cases.

silverfrog · 21/02/2011 11:17

"However a small reaction from a jab is nothing compared to weeks of illness"

Christ. I missed this on my first reading of your post.

a small reaction?! regrssing into severe autism, form having been a perfectly healthy child?

and weeks of illness, compared with the years of pain and illness that those who suffered regression end up with?

your crass comments beggar belief, tbh.

greatauntbetty · 21/02/2011 11:17

Hi felicity. Well you asked for information and unfortunately there is a lot of misinformation here which probably doesn't help.

I have to say - Wakefields research HAS been discredited. He has been struck off the medical register as a direct result of the paper and his blatant manipulation of the 'data' he presented. The reason for him being struck off was because of serious professional misconduct over widely cited unethical research. He actually deleted data on all the children in his so called study to remove data that contradicted what he was trying to say.

Silverfrog - this may contradict what you want to say/believe but unfortunately this is what the medical profession, their professional body and the law has decided.

rightpissedoff · 21/02/2011 11:23

"I have to say - Wakefields research HAS been discredited."

This is a lie.

greatauntbetty · 21/02/2011 11:26

Really?

So, the <a class="break-all" href="https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=www.gmc-uk.org/Wakefield_SPM_and_SANCTION.pdf_32595267.pdf" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">ruling by the GMC is a lie then?

Hmm
bubbleymummy · 21/02/2011 11:26

Writer - the reason no one thinks of mumps and rubella as dangerous diseases is because they never were! (unless you were pregnant and weren't immune)

Also, are you aware of how many cases and deaths there were in the UK at the start of the last century and what they had decreased to BEFORE the measles vaccine was introduced? The reduction of measles cases and deaths since the vaccine are a drop in the ocean compared to what happened before it came along.

rightpissedoff · 21/02/2011 11:32

actually yes Grin

but apart from that ..it's always been recognised as a good case study

have you ever read it?

but let's take AW out of the equation (gawd bless 'im) just for a second, and think about the thousands and thousands of parents with evidence that their children regressed after vaccination, and then let's think about how the rate of autism / ASD has shot up from 1 in 5,000-10,000 (it was so vanishingly rare that the margin of error was THAT huge) to 1 in 64 over a generation in which MMR was introduced and the vaccine schedule grew like topsy

obviously you'd prefer not to, because they're real facts and not written up in a journal, but why don't you try?

whatever can the cause be? like I said earlier -- all credible explanations welcome

rightpissedoff · 21/02/2011 11:33

Go on, all of you -- what's the cause?

You are all certain it's not vaccination.

What's the cause?

silverfrog · 21/02/2011 11:48
rightpissedoff · 21/02/2011 12:01

yes, I know

there's so much evidence.. it's true what you say, people just don't want to see it -- they look right at it and say what? where?

mamatomany · 21/02/2011 12:18

It's not impossible that there's no cause, what pisses me off is the lack of funding to research the issue which would lay to rest concerns once and for all.
Maybe nothing causes Autism maybe it's just in some people to some degree in all people ?

rightpissedoff · 21/02/2011 12:30

it's not impossible there's no cause?

I think it is impossible actually -- nothing comes from nothing

anyhoo, there's so much evidence that vaccines are involved that it's just wilful to say IT'S NOT IT'S NOT IT'S NOT REALLY IT'S NOT

it just doesn't make any sense

rightpissedoff · 21/02/2011 12:37

maybe it's just in some people to some degree in all people

oh my god that's so vacant

mamatomany · 21/02/2011 12:57

I know a hell of a lot of people who've never been near the MMR who if you described them you'd say were on the spectrum.
I'm undecided about MMR or vaccines, it certainly needs a hell of a lot more research before people blindly go along for vaccinations.

silverfrog · 21/02/2011 13:07

mamatomany, the original links between mmr and autistic enterocolitis (as described in the 1998 paper) were about links with severe regressive autism

not people who "have a few traits" or are "a bit anti social"

severe autism - with compulsive behaviours, and stimming, and violence (against self and others). with loss of langugae skills and double incontinence. locked in, in their own world. uninterested in anythign else. people with chronic diarrhoea and ulcerated guts.

not quite the same as the office eccentric who may or may not be on the spectrum, is it? this is not even Rainman territory.

it is unable to live an independent life in any way shape or form.

and these numbers have risen, exponentially.

this does not happen without a cause (whatever that cause may be). and it is not possible to hide behind "oh, most people are on the spectrum to some degree".

I have a peculiar memory for dates and numbers. and can be obsessive about a few things. this in no way compares to my dd1, with all the issues she faces with ehr severe autism.

greatauntbetty · 21/02/2011 13:13

This info is for those who are undecided on the issue. For those who are convinced there is a link between MMR and autism, I guess you will continue to selectively choose information that supports your view.

<a class="break-all" href="http://web.archive.org/web/20070623134938/www.iom.edu/CMS/3793/4705/20155.aspx" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Immunization Safety Review: Vaccines and Autism
<a class="break-all" href="https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=www.dh.gov.uk/prod_consum_dh/groups/dh_digitalassets/documents/digitalasset/dh_105189.pdf" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">MMR - the facts
Vaccines didn't cause autism, court rules
Why is MMR preferable to single vaccines?
Lack of Association between Measles Virus Vaccine and Autism with Enteropathy: A Case-Control Study
No effect of MMR withdrawal on the incidence of autism: a total population study

I could go on.

And no, I don't know what causes autism. But I think there is a reasonable amount of credible evidence that finds no link to the MMR.

rightpissedoff · 21/02/2011 14:09

and where will you be when someone takes your "info", and vaccinates their child, and sees a regression?

running over the horizon faster than guano out of a bats's arse with a cheery "it's all a coincidence darling" thrown over your shoulder as you disappear

rightpissedoff · 21/02/2011 14:13

oh my gosh you even used the japan study silly girl

what else let's see

rightpissedoff · 21/02/2011 14:16

who links to the HPA for research ?

dearie me, and MMR the facts?

thanks but no thanks

rightpissedoff · 21/02/2011 14:17

"But I think there is a reasonable amount of credible evidence that finds no link to the MMR."

Actually there's a reasonable amount of credible evidence in favour of a link to MMR.

But you just go ahead and ignore it.

ScramVonChubby · 21/02/2011 14:28

The problem is ehre that ATM the research on the group ahsn;t been done; why not just do it instead of expecting people to doa s told without it?

Relying only on peer reviewed evidence is odd: this sort fo research just tests for pre-existent links: those links already exist in the real world and still would regardless of whether the research is undertaken forst. The phenomena tested do not magically spring into existence because a wizard discovers that X and Y could be linked!

And yes, what RPO says about disappearing voer the horizon: currenlty on Mn there are people wishing all disability benefits would end, all satte provision cease. Many people with a disabled child or relative will tell you how fast family and friends vanish on diagnosis. I currently have 2 asd children, one possibly regressing (thanking goodness I didn't give MMR as not being able to blame myself is a freeedom anyway but I do think the existence of genes might have meant MMR exacerbated the ASD), one with dyspraxia and a DH needing a levelof care. And no support barring financial from state. Why would I feel an extra responsibility to take actions I do not want (eg give MMR) or accept collaterel damage for the sake of others who ahve in largescale abandoned us?

sausagerolemodel · 21/02/2011 15:26

This is the modus operandi of conspiracy theorists sigh.

Wear down your critics by just keeping saying the same thing over and over again until they really can't be arsed refuting your lies and assertions anymore. (at last count 36 out of 150 posts on this thread were yours, that?s 1 in 4?.). Saying it more often and for longer still doesn?t make your assertions correct. I guess attrition has to be your friend because logic, statistics and scientific credibility are not your strong point.

In one breath you say "stop patronising me", and then you show all of the intellect of a 6 year old by being unable to understand that a sample size of 1 child diagnosed by its mother does not constitute ?reliable evidence?. This is not the same as saying the mother isn?t a reliable witness and doesn?t know her child, it?s a simple numbers game. Coincidences do happen. Some regression happens without an environmental trigger. No parent can see what is happening inside her child?s cells.

You also labour under the misapprehension that because measles vaccine uptake and ASDs have both risen over the course of two decades that they are related.

Its a basic, simple tenet of being able to analyse scientific evidence that you understand that
CORRELATION DOES NOT MEAN CAUSATION

Growing population of people with ASD - well of course there is. Why would you expect anything else?

Why?

"ASD" it is a spectral disorder and that spectrum has been increasing in size and scope for every bit as long as it has existed. This is because of changes in the diagnostic criteria and increased public awareness and referrals to support services, not because incidence is actually increasing in the population. Loads of kids who would never have been "diagnosed" with anything other than perhaps (in the olden days) being considered "a bit slow" are now fully diagnosed paid up members of the ASD community. Great - hopefully they get the help and support they need.

Before anyone had even coined the term autism there were still people with ASD, they just called it something else. Before the raising of public awareness, people weren?t looking for symptoms in their child, so lots of people with mild symptoms would not have been diagnosed. Even now it is considered that ASD is still under-reported, so expect the numbers to keep rising for a while yet.

Observing regression.

Regression can be caused by lots of things. In girls with ASD RETT syndrome it is usually a mutation on a gene which encodes for a protein in neurones. They have this mutation from birth but they still develop entirely normally for anything from 8 months of age to 2 years of age before regressing. Even girls who have identical mutations will regress differently and from different ages.

What causes the mutation? It could be spontaneous. It could have been exposure to some mutagen during pregnancy such as cigarette smoke. Who knows? My point being that regression happens along a sliding scale of time and can be due to loads of things that never entered your mind (chemicals from a new carpet? Something that leaked under the sink? second hand smoke from a beer garden as you walked past?) Or indeed spontaneous mutations which can and do occur all the time. We know how RETT happens but the causes of some forms of ASD are still not known at the molecular level, so we can't look for them.

The point of the analogy being that there are loads of things that cause mutations, and mutations can cause ASD, so you simply can't say - it happened after the vaccine, it must have been the vaccine that caused it.

Silverfrog ? the poor science in Wakefield?s paper comes from two sources
a) the fact that he got positive results from patients that his PhD student had previously tested as negative which was almost certainly because
b) the PCR primers he used were crap and give false positive results, as written up
here

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1954854/?tool=pubmed

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