Help me make sense of MMR - hype or theory

[felicity10]

OK, so I've been through a few pages of previous posts, I must be missing something because I can't make sense of it!

DD is 1 and I've had a letter about the vacs from the GP. I've heard about the MMR in the news few years ago and about the link to autism, but I just would really value your views.

Single vacs with no mumps or the MMR? Can anyone point me in the direction of key MMR issues?

I just don't want to get to the gp's and then feel like I am getting bullied into having the mmr - it is normally very no nonsense nurses who barely speak english, so will be unlikely to give me a clear answer as to any risks.

I am amazed that we have this lack of clarity in the UK.

Many thanks in advance!

Only got a few posts in before people start talking about the 'dangers' and 'risks' of Mumps and rubella. Read about the diseases and you will see that they are not. they are usually mild illnesses and in many cases completely asymptomatic. Rubella is dangerous to a developing baby though - tbh this makes vaccinating against it during childhood seem even more risky given that you are less likely to be immune to it by the time you get pregnant! If you acquire natural immunity to it, it lasts for life.

Some people choose not to give the mmr because they don't want to vaccinate against all 3 diseases and would rather that their children have the opportunity to acquire better, natural immunity - it isn't always about the lancet paper which btw was a case series. Look it up so you can see the difference in what is expected from it. Wakefield did not say that the mmr caused autism!

ok her's my POV

whilst there has been no causal link proven, i beleive there is a link for some children (obviously not all)

DNephew was saying many words and 2 phrases - Be happy & Beat it - before having MMR.
after having it he has literally not said a word since, he is now 7yo, is not potty trained has absolutley no means of communication (didn't even cry when burnt hand on a cooker?!)
he doesn't notice anyone or anything doesnt play with toys etc.

its truly heartbreaking to watch.
for this reason i have given DS seperate jabs and GP said that if mumps doesnt come in by the time he's 4yo he can have triple booster as shouldn't be as much of a risk when he's older.

hope this helps but i understand just how difficult a decision this is.

feelingsleepy thanks for the links.

I did and will vaccinate with the mmr. I honestly do not see the point of vaccinating seperatly.

I'm sorry Edward but I don't believe any causative effect.

as i say there is no causal link thus far however for some children genetics maybe?? it seems to trigger autism.
it also triggered it in my DB although much much less severe than nephew.

and my mum's friends son. who is now 13yo or so and can't go out in public due to panic attacks etc, mum's friend said long before child was showing symptoms that he "changed" immediatly following jab i.e same day.

also just to add nephew went to a nursery and school for autism specifically and only came across 1 little girl with autism so seems to be much more prominent in boys?

if i had a daughter i would consider 3in1 but with a boy id be much more cautious purely due to personal experience.

I am tempted to shout the HYPE ABOUT MMR IS RUBBISH! OK I've got that off my chest
There are no reliable large trials showing any link to autism.

The trouble is in our protected, safe, western world we still want to do the best to protect our children from the few remaining dangers they face.
Saying no to MMR and preventing your child developing Autism, was something you could do. That all the experts said you were being silly, just made you fight all the harder. Cynical papers joined in and common-sense went out the window.

I also recommend you read Bad Science by Ben Goldacre. or read his web site MMR HOX

Or maybe you should read the paper itself Startail and see for yourself that it was a case series and it did not say that mmr causes autism!

Startail do you have any experience of autism post MMR?
I have never even read the article from lancet. But would rather put my trust in docors/journalists than politicians
It's fairly obvious that even if there is a link it will never be accepted by any government as cost in damages would be huge.
On another government conspiracy theory whle I'm on a roll is why there is no stock of single mumps? Hasn't been for 2yrs (in Scotland) yet it's same stuff they put in MMR??
We need to be given more choice to do wat we feel is right by our kids.
And not told what to do by government or made to feel bad for the choices we make!

A Case series of 12, where children had had the MMR, and had a certain bowel disease.

Given how many children have MMR, it was bound to be the case that there will be crossover.

I could do a case study on one-legged people who have had MMR, but that doesn't mean that MMR causes one-leggedness

MMR is safer than the (mild in most cases, horrific in others) diseases themselves. Look at the stats and you will see.

If it's 3 diseases in one jab that bothers you, by all means pay for the singles, but if it's the preservative that bothers you surely best to go for the all in one (which causes no issue in the vast, vast, vast majority of children)

Chunky - if your case series showed that the one-legged peole had lost their leg through something which directly correlated with having the mmr, then there would be an issue...

no one has said that mmr is not safe for the vast majority of people (although the govmt's own Cochrane review - held specifically to quell all the "mmr is unsafe" media jibes concluded that there was not enough safety trial evidence to conclude it was safe - how reassuring )

if, however, you really do think (as you appear to, from your post) that collateral damage to a minortiy of children is all fine and above board because the majority are ok - well, I'm not sure how to answer that. what an extraordinary "I'm alright Jack" attitude.

what wakefield found was a series of parents (and there were many more than the 12 he and colleagues presented in the 1998 paper) who had all noticed onset of autism post mmr. he (and others_ listened, investigated, and wrote up the case series, having found the new form of bowel disease, suggesting that more research was needed to find out a) whether the jab was safe (mmr has a controversial history at best - what with the Urabe strain issues as well) and b) if it was safe for the majority, then how to work out the minority who were/are being affected.

AT NO POINT DID WAKEFIELD SUGGEST NOT TO VACCINATE He is not anti-vaccine, but found something really quite worrying (which has since been replicated around the world, but not in the large studies anti-Wakefielder's cite - those studies do not even begin to look at the issues Wakefield raised, so how they can say theu do not exist is beyond me ), and on the back of that he recommneded using single jabs (which were available on teh nhs at the time, and for some months after his call for this) while adequate safety studies were carried out.

why the govmt went on to withdraw the singles, when uptake of them was quite high, and it was clear that parents were rejecting the mmr in substantial numbers is a mystery.

but anyway, that aside.

for a minority of children, mmr is not safe. some of the indicators for your child ebing in this minority group would be history of allergy/auto immune/gut diseases inthe family.

'No, media led sheep only question that which has already been questioned by the media.

'
That wouldn;t be me then, seeing as I got a B+ in my ASD Aetiology essay. I do question what's been looked at in peer reviewed research- and what peer reviewed research, when combined with the expriences of a few of the very many parents I talk to every day, tells me is that there seem to be a lot of different triggers and we have yet to identify them.

Do i think MMR triggered it with harry? no, actually: I think early exposure to the casein protein did, something that is questioned in the same way as MMR by a few and which, combined with gluten, is beginning to show through in research such as that by genius (great name for a researcher, no?)

Now, I am pro vacination: to the extent that somewhere I have a certificate ofr an essay on Jenner I did at college. I know people who ahve survived polio etc. But I think the collaterel damage approach only works at all in we have a society that can help suport those who are unlucky: we don't. We have a society where every penny is rationed, where a 20% cut to disability support is approaching, where MN supports a campaign for a stop to sexual clothing for children (and big plus for that) in thousands yet one for respite gets 47 posts. Where posters advocate no say for anyone dependent on benefits, even when disabled (it's abd form to reference a poster but I could). Where the slightest help at school is hard won and rare- DS1 has a palce at a specialist unit: he needs it, badly. To get that place we had to fight for 2 places wanted by 37 chidlren- and indeed another bunch who were told not to even try.

Collaterel damage and the like isn;t really acceptable IMO but even if it were it would require everyone to have a shared responsibilty for the disabled, the whole rights with responsibility thing- you ahve a right to see an end to vaccine preventable disease IF you are prepared to absorb responsibility for the care of thsoe affected- that doesn;t ahppen. My friend whose DD developed CP? His wife died shortly after and he had tyo give up all his life, career, family etc and move 200 miles to beenar a therapy base: after 13 years they won a hige settlement but by then it was too late- he was too long out of his research field; they'd spent 10 years alone in a horrid council flat......

Now, I was happy to pay for teh singles: and here in Wales the cost isn;t that prohibitive- under £200 each rather than more than double elsewhere. but I cn;t buy mumps becuase they don;t make it. That's my actual huge gripe I guess: if people like me want protection we re forced into one narrow route even if we are willing to pay. I could take a road that covers my own sanity and yet protects everyone else- IF they still made it.

'for some children genetics maybe?? it seems to trigger autism.
'

We now know that a lot of ASD is genetic (not all- mitochondrial issues can be responsible and there are some interestingc ases around herpes, encephalitis etc) but what we don;t know is the trigger as it does seem to ahve epigenetic origins- as do most genetic issues anyway. By which I mean there is an interaction between environment and genes: so PKU is epigentic because unless phenylalanine is present in the diet it wouldn't be an issue.

There's some intresting stuff out there on meds used to reduce fever causing issues with the immune system- now it would be easy to hypothesise that as vaccinations cause a peak in temperatrure as a standard reaction, and that medics often advocate administering meds to combat this even before the 3 month age, that could cause a crossover with vaccinations BUT as temeperature is also dangerous, you'd still be stuck trying to decide between avoiding meds for temp or the intial jab anyway, if you were ASD risk averse.

I would like to repeat though that I have never advocated anyone to not have the MMR or any other jab. I only advocate people read widely as possible before deciding. Advocating that is right in EVERY issue.

Scram - why do you think temperatures are dangerous? They are the body's way of fighting off illness and are part of its natural response. The NICE guidelines don't recommend treating a fever unless it is causing discomfort. Unfortunately many people feel the need to do 'something' when their child is ill so they reach for the paracetemol/ibuprofen even though the child doesn't actually need it. I think people feel like that by bringing the temperature down they are making the child better but the illness is still there - all you have done is taken away one of the body's defenses.

The large trials designed to prove there's no link don't do any such thing.

There probably is a link, for some children.

Too much evidence out there for me to take the risk anyway.

Impressive how many people can say without seeing any damaged children, before or after their vaccines or their damage, or their medical notes, or their doctors, or their parents, or their health visitors, that they can diagnose through the power of tinterweb that these children weren't damaged by vaccines.

Now that's a talent.

"We now know that a lot of ASD is genetic"

it's equally likely that vulnerability to vaccine ingredients is genetic

Bubbley raised temperatures above a certain level are dangerous, hyperpyrexia causes brain damage.

rightpissedoff absolutely; but I would guesstimate that for a child to develop asd after a vaccine tehre would need to be a rare mix og genes interplaying.

FACT: MMR is entirely safe for the vast majority of people who take it (and there is no evidence to prove that it isn't safe for everyone in terms of ASD, leading me on to

FACT: Their is absolutely no evidence to show that there is a link between MMR and ASD. (the most recent in many many many trials was published yesterday)

FACT: Large scale clinical trials have shown no statistically significant risks associated with the vaccine

FACT: Its really easy to be emotionally swayed by vocal individuals who refuse to believe that the issues their children suffer from are NOT related to vaccine damage*, but who do you trust - a sample size of one strident person who may or ,may not have any medical or scientific training or credentials? or the objectively collated data from a clinical trial of thousands and thousands of people?

**the same people who campaigned for years insisting that MMR and ASD were linked, despite mounting evidence to the contrary, now think that it must be a much smaller subset of genetically predisposed children who are affected by it. Unfortunately this subset is so small that it won't show up in clinical trials. Convenient. What this means, statistically speaking, is that there is as much chance of it being a complete coincidence that their child got sick after the injection as there is that its a real association. Either way, its such a tiny chance the injection is clearly still the safer option.

FACT: Not all vaccines are entirely safe and their is such a thing as vaccine damage, It is extremely rare and it is clear that the benefits outweigh the risks hugely if you look at the figures

FACT: those who claim that these diseases are not really that bad almost invariably refer to the same anti-vaccination scare-mongery website graphs which are wilfully misrepresented to make it look like the vaccines don't work. They do this for example by taking the graph of a long time period (say over the century) and point and say "look deaths were falling anyway! it wasn't anything to do with the vaccine". Its just not understanding the data and being too easily swayed by some Herbert wilfully misrepresenting it.

Most of the anti-vaccination sites spout scientific garbage whilst sounding scientifically literate.

If you are considering not vaccinating, you might want to have a little look here.

www.jennymccarthybodycount.com/Jenny_McCarthy_Body_Count/Home.html

Jenny McCarthy has been instrumental in instilling fear into the US population about the vaccine regime and this is the result.

The vaccines threads on this forum tend to be dominated by people who do have reservations and or children/family affected, and therefore please be aware that you will get a very skewed result from asking this question. This is because most people who have vaccinated and don't have kids with ASD don't feel the need/desire to come and fight a big fight about it. Strength of feeling and number of posts does not equate with scientific truth.

FACT I ahve done none of thsoe things

All SF and I ever advocate is people go read themselves. Everyone who comes onto this section of the board has a strong view. Although mine is just never amke a medical decision without reading and learning first. Always served me well, that.

Scram, it is prolonged fevers above that level that can be dangerous. The hypothalamus does not normally allow our body temperature to reach the danger level of 107-108 degrees F that (if it stays at that level for some time) could cause damage unless it has somehow been compromised e.g by sunstroke or poisoning. Typically fevers do not reach as high as 41.5 - even without meditating. People seem to think that the fever will just keep going up and up unless they do something to stop it which just isn't the case.

sausage " Its just not understanding the data and being too easily swayed by some Herbert wilfully misrepresenting it."

Can you explain the data for us then please? I have seen those charts so I'm interested to see how the number of deaths declining prior to the introduction of vaccines could be interpreted in a different way. Is there another chart that shows something different?

Sigh - meditating = medicating. stupid auto correct! :)

Scram I delberately didn't name any names, but I think you know that my general observation is true.

I'd love to know why it is that you are sceptical about the contents of peer reviewed journals, but happy to be allowed to be swayed by entirely subjective personal testimony? One of these things provides generally reliable testimony based on repeatable findings (and where they are not repeatable, because they are wrong, or fradulent - see Wakefield et al, they soon get rubbished). The other is subjective anecdotel evidence which is not supported by the heavy weight of evidence. Can you appreciate that anecdotal evidence is weak evidence, even if its powerful emotionally?

And, since you said you didn't do do any of things I mentioned; "J'accuse"

because the paragraph I quote below is nonsensical, All it says in amongst that big load of jargon is "ASD may have inherited and non inherited features" So why mention all that bollocks and science speak, if not to make you look like you have more authority on the subject than you do?

We now know that a lot of ASD is genetic (not all- mitochondrial issues can be responsible and there are some interestingc ases around herpes, encephalitis etc) but what we don;t know is the trigger as it does seem to ahve epigenetic origins- as do most genetic issues anyway. By which I mean there is an interaction between environment and genes: so PKU is epigentic because unless phenylalanine is present in the diet it wouldn't be an issue.

Bubbley - just going to collect some info. Will be back later or in the morning

I

"FACT: Their is absolutely no evidence to show that there is a link between MMR and ASD. (the most recent in many many many trials was published yesterday)"

Very far from being a fact, this is bolleaux. I would go so far as to say, utter bolleaux.

actually quite a lot of what sausage wrote wasn't worth the type I just spent reading it

hey ho

Just a quick example

Please look at this graph

Measles mortality in the UK showing not just the downward trend since the turn of the century but the massive spikes and variability that occurred with outbreaks.

www.iayork.com/Images/2010/3-15-10/UKMeaslesDeaths.png

Of course death rates were going down due to improved sanitation, hygiene and antibiotics coming along from 1935 onwards, and thankfully death from diseases of all kinds declined a great deal last century. But remember this is deaths, there is still a huge amount of disability (deafness/blindness/braindamage) caused by measles even when its not fatal. Healthcare improvement stopped so many people dying from it - but we didn't stop people getting it it, so it was important to control outbreaks as well.

Here's the same data on a graph from the Rosemary Cottage Natural Health Centre - it implies that the vaccine was unnecessary and made no difference to the general level of health/mortality

rosemarycottageclinic.co.uk/blogweb/uploads/vaccine/MMRgraph.JPG

Wow - why would you vaccinate when there are practically no deaths from it anyway? Well that's where that graph is misleading:

If we take the very same data and zoom in a bit to the time period we are interested in (1968 onwards) you can see a distinct drop after vaccines are brought in. (US and UK data shown)

tankebrott.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/measles_us_uk.png

On this scale you can clearly see that actually there is still a fair bit of death and disability going on at the bottom of the scale, albeit less (thank goodness) than a century previously.

In 1961 just before the first measles vaccine was brought in, there were 800,000 cases of measles and 152 deaths. (I'm assuming these are 152 children that the Rosemary Cottage Clinic think were insignificant and not worthy of saving)

The year before MMR came in there were still 16 deaths. After the MMR vaccine, this has dropped again with no more than 1 death a year and many years no deaths at all since 2000. But outbreaks are on the increase again precisely because of the drop in uptake of MMR.

** actual measles death figures here

www.hpa.org.uk/web/HPAweb&HPAwebStandard/HPAweb_C/1195733835814

This is just one example - the anti-vaccination graphs have been demolished more comprehensively by other people if you want to read more try these

www.iayork.com/MysteryRays/2010/03/15/measles-week-part-i-introduction/

and

www.software3d.com/Home/Vax/Graphs.php