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Help me make sense of MMR - hype or theory

941 replies

felicity10 · 17/02/2011 20:53

OK, so I've been through a few pages of previous posts, I must be missing something because I can't make sense of it!

DD is 1 and I've had a letter about the vacs from the GP. I've heard about the MMR in the news few years ago and about the link to autism, but I just would really value your views.

Single vacs with no mumps or the MMR? Confused Can anyone point me in the direction of key MMR issues?

I just don't want to get to the gp's and then feel like I am getting bullied into having the mmr - it is normally very no nonsense nurses who barely speak english, so will be unlikely to give me a clear answer as to any risks.

I am amazed that we have this lack of clarity in the UK.

Many thanks in advance!

OP posts:
rightpissedoff · 02/03/2011 09:30

Thanks for the very well thought out posts above Beach. It encapsulates everything I find so hard to articulate. A real "thinking" post without invective, rhetoric, or point-scoring.

rightpissedoff · 02/03/2011 12:42

I hope more people than me read your pearls of wisdom. It would be reasonable for Seeker, Stata and others to come back and acknowledge that this is the way to approach the issue. But I'm going to somehow bookmark it or watch it or whatever one does and revisit it, there's good stuff ehre.

Beachcomber · 02/03/2011 16:40

Thank you rightpissedoff!

Here is another document which could be of interest for anyone who wants to read some of the science.

It is a document that has been created by a parent - he lists the relevant studies and gives some commentary on lots of them. He looks at the much touted epidemiological studies too. The document is not up to date but there is shed-loads of info in it (it is over 400 pages long!).

www.nccn.net/~wwithin/briefing2006Feb28thVaccinesAutismReviewOfEvidence.pdf

Those who are convinced by the epidemiological studies which say there is no vaccine/autism link, would do well to read this section: "Part K. Studies Seeking To Deny Any MMR/Thimerosal/Autism Link".

StataLover · 02/03/2011 20:22

This is a bit long ? sorry in advance and congrats if you read it through!

It?s quite right that anecdotal evidence often drives hypotheses. However, anecdotal evidence cannot determine whether the hypothesis has been proved or not. That?s why you need scientific evidence.

So, anecdote or if you prefer ?stories? or if you don?t like stories (wonder if I?ll get told to ?fuck off? for that ?offensive? comment) then personal accounts.... My child/friend?s child/cousin/someone on mumsnet?s child (delete or add as appropriate) regressed/developed autism (put in your issue of choice) following MMR (many such examples in UK following our ?vaccine scare? but surprisingly not in the Netherlands, for example). Another example: I know of a nurse who developed MS after multiple jabs of Hep B vaccine (many such anecdotes in France during their ?vaccine scare? but surprisingly not in the UK). It?s interesting that the anecdotal evidence tends to surface in those countries where there is a scare flamed by the media.

It?s not new either ? it was pertussis and the dangers of the DTP vaccine in the 1970s (we all know what happened to Japan when they actually acted on the anecdotal evidence with no scientific basis ? wonder who cares about their pertussis damaged or dead children ? are they collateral damage of the anti-vax movement???) You can see that most of what one is told by Team Anti-vax ?shows? that vaccines have caused harm to children comes down to anecdotes or stories, if you prefer.

One essential quality of the stories that come from the anti-vaxers, and those that read, consume, repeat and spread them, is that any story that tells something framed as ?vaccine damaged child? is automatically regarded as believable and accurate and cannot be challenged. The person telling the stories anecdotes could not possibly have misremembered, conflated, exaggerated, or ?shock horror? made it up (following in the footsteps of Saint Andy wakefield). Even inadvertently.

Indeed, the stories are regarded as so true, and so convincing, that the science that fails to find evidence for theses stories must (in the slightly warped Anti-Vax world) be wrong. I think I was even called evil for daring to challenge this presumption. Grin This is actually a stock line of denialist movements.

It doesn?t mean we should ignore anecdotes. We don?t. Scientific enquiry based on this anecdotal evidence subsequently found no evidence of a link between autism or any development disorder and MMR (or any other vaccine) or of a link between Hep B vaccine and MS.

What?s an amusing feature of the denialist anti-vax movement is that they pick and choose which scientific evidence they use. When it doesn?t agree with the anecdotal evidence that they present then it?s flawed or corrupted or ghostwritten or impossible to completely 100% prove or whatever ? anything but correct! But when the occasional paper does semi-agree with them or is even suggestive of agreement (which can happen by the law of probabilities), whatever its flaws, then it?s wheeled out as an example of scientific evidence!! These ?replications of wakefield?s study? say nothing about his evidence free hypothesis that the vaccine triggered a gut infection that contributed to autism, as well as "autistic entercolitis?, but are used in a sad attempt to establish the credentials of a discredited researcher.

Anyway, however great a researcher Wakefield may have once been, if it has been demonstrated that you have falsified data then you lose all credibility. And the studies posted by saintlyjimjams in the other post that silverfrog is so concerned about did not implicate vaccines anywhere ? in fact, explicitly said so! So what was the big hoo-haa? That the immune system is involved somehow in the aetiology of autism. Well, that could equally mean that being exposed to all the lovely preventable diseases is a trigger for autism.

The funniest one is ?right? quoting from the Marsden paper where they explain the justification for their study of half a million children. Yes, that?s the point of such a huge study ? in order to have sufficient power to pick up what are tiny effects. If the effects were large, then power wouldn?t be an issue. But the effects, if they exist, are so tiny that a study of half a million children can?t find anything (which according to ?right? means that they accidentally on purpose must have left something out). That?s all that they are saying. Epidemiologic studies do indeed have their flaws: sometimes there isn?t sufficient power, unobserved heterogeneity can be a problem, interactions between confounding variables can be complex ? but when study after study after study says the same thing then the evidence becomes much more compelling.

Another ?right? classic was her assertion that an error, multiplied by thousands or millions, becomes correct! Umm, an error multiplied by a million becomes a million errors.

Our understanding of the immune system indeed has some holes. For example, we don?t understand quite why administering multiple vaccines in one shot leads to an improved immune response. Another interesting thing we do know is that one of the suspected causes of autism is if the mother has rubella. So, really, by not vaccinating against rubella, we?re contributing to the next generation?s burden of autism.

We do know however that multiple infections in children are harmful to their growth and development. We also know that being ill with measles, mumps, whooping cough, diphtheria, polio, or meningitis is really not conducive to child development even if it doesn?t kill the child or leave them permanently damaged. Our immune systems are exposed to multiple bacteria and viruses all the time. They?re more than capable of handling multiple vaccines which are viruses or bacteria which simply don?t reproduce but stimulate an immune response. What is less good for children?s bodies is when the viruses or bacteria DO have time to reproduce ie make them ill, and that DOES overload the immune system and leaves children susceptible to secondary infections. With the increase in antiobiotic resistance, it may become much much harder to treat those illnesses. In any case, an extended hospitalisation, even without long term complications, it?s not pleasant for any child and exposes them to much more chance of side effects from medicine as well as potential infection in hospital.

Wakefield has been found to be dishonest and unethical. Read this and this in the internationally respected British Medical Journal]] He has been struck off. He pulled his libel suit as he couldn?t prove his innocence (nothing to do with not having money, the man is raking it in in Texas by acting as a beacon to the anti-vax movement, no need to worry about his finances).

Supporting Wakefield is a calling card of the anti-vax denialist movement as it?s all about conspiracy and paranoia (even the term ?collateral damage? is used for emotional effect). The GMC is corrupted, the editors of the BMJ and Lancet as well as Brian Deer (boo! Slimey journalist, yuk, don?t believe him) are ALL LIARS ? only Wakefield (who is so lovely you just have to kiss and believe him) cares about us and our poor neglected children, only wakefield believes us (wonder why that is!), only Wakefield is telling the truth. I guess everyone needs to decide who they believe. Respected professionals in the GMC committee, in the BMJ and in the Lancet or Wakefield and his gang of anti-vax nutter denialists who he has gathered around himself. I know where I stand on this one.

Of course my PhD counts for nothing in the eyes of the anti-vaxers. It would be the same if it was an MD, MBBS, MPH or any other relevant scientific qualification that you care to add as long as you disagree with them. It threatens them and their pseudoscience conducted at the university of google so they have to pretend that it doesn?t matter, that it doesn?t count. (although they love scientific credentials if you do happen to agree). Because they know best and only they know the truth. The rest of us have not yet been enlightened and have not seen the terrible conspiracy against the poor dr wakefield (can he even use dr as a title once he?s been struck off?) and in favour of vaccines with BIG PHARMA dictating the shots (which doesn?t explain why the chicken pox vaccine wasn?t taken up the NHS).

I guess it is hard for anti-vaxers to accept that there are people who know much more than them and that the vast majority of these people simply don?t agree with them (and many find the claims of the anti-vax movement absolutely ridiculous). That said though, I have never made any argument from authority (I only mentioned my phd in defence to some provocative comments ? I shouldn?t have stooped down to the same level, my mistake) and I certainly don?t expect anyone to accept anything I say because of my expertise in epidemiology. I discuss logic and evidence and my analysis stands on its own merits.

Vaccines are not a holy cow. They are treated in exactly the same way as other medications. There is zero evidence that they are treated any differently to other medications. If there was evidence that they are unsafe, they would be withdrawn, in exactly the same process that applies to all medications. Sometimes these effects are so small that they are not picked up in the clinical trials (eg the first rotavirus vaccine which caused an intestinal blockage in one in 10,000 children ? you?d really need a large sample to pick up an effect of this magnitude but picked up it was when it was rolled out and vaccine was withdrawn with no screams of conspiracy).

In the past 15 years or so the anti-vaccine movement was absolutely certain that MMR caused autism. When that hypothesis did not pan out, then they shifted focus to thimerosal. That hypothesis is now dead, so they are moving on to the other ingredients in vaccines. It?s endless, and clearly all they care about is blaming vaccines. The claim is also demonstrably not true. Vaccine safety is closely monitored, and there are many published studies of vaccine safety ? not just for MMR or thimerosal. Here is a list of such studies from cdc Even if some are flawed, just look at the huge amount of evidence that has been generated. Just wanted to flag up this one as it?s under methodology not safety and is very interesting:
Glanz JM, McClure DL, Xu S, Hambidge SJ, Lee M, Kolczak MS, Kleinman K, Mullooly JP, France EK. Four different study designs to evaluate vaccine safety were equally validated with contrasting limitations. Journal of Clinical Epidemiology 2006;59:808?818.

I also really like a policy brief by ?Sense? which is a charity to provide support to deaf-blind people ? many of whom have been disabled by preventable disease (the collateral damage of not vaccinating). Here you go www.senseaboutscience.org.uk/pdf/MMRPolicyBriefing.pdf

However, all the overwhelming evidence about vaccine safety is sometimes forgotten when some elder stateswomen of mumsnet ? with no authority whatsoever ? declare that vaccines are responsible for causing some awful condition in their child. The fact that entry into a child?s system is made to administer a vaccine (love Leonie?s emotive descriptions of administering a vaccine injection), can override a parent?s common sense, set off alarms, and bring about panic that the government is imposing a vaccine progamme on the population that is not necessary and that may be harmful. Every parent will defend a child; withholding legitimate, effective, medication is not the way to do it? That is self-deception, resulting in well-meant but often fatal and tragic results.

That said, in purely selfish self interest for my children, those who choose not to vax are doing my children and other vaxed children a nice favour. My children are highly unlikely to develop one of the preventable diseases since they are immunised against them. Yet all the unvaxed children, who are exposed to the dz, and transmit it in the community once herd immunity decreases sufficiently, are giving my children natural boosters all the time and keeping their immunity up. So thanks for that guys. Shame it?s also putting at risk your own children and children who the evidence does say shouldn?t be vaxed.

Beachcomber · 02/03/2011 22:52

Um righto Stata.

I think we're pretty clear on your personal opinion on all this. I think we are also pretty clear on your dismissive contempt for parents who have witnessed their children reacting badly to a vaccine.

Do you have anything to say that isn't crass and offensive about the actual science?

Do you really think that people pretend that their ill children are vaccine damaged in order to score points in an internet debate? What sort of sick thinking is that for crying out loud?

Your post has left a really nasty taste in my mouth.

Beachcomber · 02/03/2011 23:03

Oh and I have already asked you - who are these 'anti vaxers' of which you speak?

I would love to be able to vaccinate my children.

My eldest daughter reacts badly to vaccines but hey guess what - she is also vulnerable to infectious disease because she is; underweight, has asthma, has digestive issues, cannot absorb zinc properly (essential for a healthy immune system), has convulsions when she has a temperature, is allergic to some antibiotics, cannot take paracetamol (it brings on convulsions and worsens her asthma) and has already developed viral meningitis (chicken pox).

She also has a neural tube defect that makes her vulnerable to meningitis.

I would fucking love to be able to safely vaccinate her.

StataLover · 02/03/2011 23:20

Wakefield falsified data for personal gain and has directly, by his actions, contributed to the decline in MMR uptake and its consequences in this country.

Attribution bias is an established fact. It happens and not just with vaccines There are many reasons for it.

There isn't any scientific evidence for the kind of an effect you suggest. Just questionable stories. In the list of references you posted, just five even had the word 'vaccine' or 'immunisation' in their title, ie addressed the question to hand. Out of those five, only one seems to suggest a link between development outcomes and vaccines. NONE of the others do (and one of them also thanks Wakefield for help in the design Hmm - sure hope they weren't asking him about ethics). Unfortunately, it's one I can't access as it's not a health related journal.(Gallagher, Goodman. Hepatitis B triple series vaccine and developmental disability in US children aged 1-9 years. Toxicol Environ Chem. 2008 Sept: 90(5)997-1008.). Looking at the abstract though, they looked at 7 unimmunised boys.

It's clear to me where the weight of evidence falls.

StataLover · 02/03/2011 23:21

That's great Beachcomber. I'm really glad you're not one of the anti-vaxers and don't believe in that Wakefield was the victim of a big conspiracy

Beachcomber · 02/03/2011 23:53

The chucking about of the term 'anti vaxers' is crass and lazy - it is also a silencing tactic and intellectually dishonest. Same goes for the 'conspiracy' stuff.

I think Dr Wakefield is an eminent scientist and a man of integrity - as are Professors Murch and Walker-Smith.

Fact is , the UK government has fucked up badly on this one. When the first MMR had to be withdrawn because it was shown to cause meningitis, the vaccine manufacturers were wary of making another triple vaccine available. They were, quite understandably, concerned about litigation. The government offered indemnity to the manufacturers in order to secure a triple vaccine supply. One would like to imagine that this decision was made with the public good in mind.

If this could come out in the wash by the manufacturers being sued and paying compensation then no doubt that would have happened by now (the government certainly wouldn't go terribly out of their way to protect any manufacturer's arse I suspect!).

As for your comments about the science - do you have much of an understanding of what autism is? It is (in some of its manifestations) a condition which touches the gut, the brain and the immune system - do you have any idea how complex that makes it to study? Each of those studies I cite is part of a complex biological puzzle. I already explained that it isn't possible to point to one study and say there you go, there's your link. Is it really so very hard to grasp?

Beachcomber · 02/03/2011 23:56

Can you tell me what data Dr Wakefield falsified?

Which paper or study of his are you referring to here?

Beachcomber · 03/03/2011 00:09

I think these papers are very interesting parts of the puzzle. (I'm afraid none of them have the word 'vaccine' in the title though!!)

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11950955

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10759242

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12145534

The third one by Dr Singh is very intriguing.

StataLover · 03/03/2011 00:28

Please excuse the mixed metaphors - but the spade is wearing a very tightly fitting cap.

I couldn't agree more with you that one study is not sufficient. I have never said otherwise. One study is suggestive. It's when study after study after study as I have shown again and again demonstrate vaccine safety that you have a body of evidence that allows you to make an informed decision.

Do you know why that parent's 'critique' that you sent is so long? Because there are so many studies!! You can look at each one and try to pick holes (love the refs back to why none of the critiques apply to Wakefield that the parent put in all the time!) but when the studies with different methods are finding the same finding again and again, the probability of there being something else drops even further. Note that I've never said not possible, but very unlikely.

Read the BMJ articles. I think you'll find they put it very nicely...or are they all lying???

Walker Smith didn't deny that anything unethical happened or that things weren't falsified - he just blamed wakefield and claimed ignorance.

The discrepancies between the case reports as described in Wakefield?s 1998 Lancet paper and the actual medical records were not random; all were in the direction of suggesting a link between the MMR and Wakefield?s as yet unverified syndrome of regressive autism and enterocolitis. The cases that were selected appear not to have been random, sequential patients but were rather recruited specifically through anti-vaccine activists and trial lawyers. Why is this so difficult to understand?

Oooh, do you know what I just found out - that paper with the monkeys that Wakefield advised on was withdrawn!! And Thoughtful House fired Wakefield.

What I really don't understand is why the anti-vax brigade continue to cling to Wakefield?s discredited ?science? and lionise this fraud as a hero. Surely the more sober and intelligent anti-vaxers (I'm sure you do exist)must realise by now that Wakefield has become a huge liability.

Do you know the Black Knight scene in Monty Python in the Holy Grail? Wakefield now reminds very much of him. Do you remember, he had his arm hacked off and then declared it just a flesh wound and he can keep going. And he just keeps going, refusing to concede defeat, until his last leg is chopped from under him.

StataLover · 03/03/2011 00:40

What's weird is that sometimes some of you sound sensible and it seems that it's possible to rationally examine the evidence. And then you all go off on some crazy tangent and start feeding off some pretty out-there ideas and completely undermine everything you said earlier. You can't opt in and out of evidence as and when it supports your pre-conceived views.

Those studies are interesting, beach. But as you said, they're not specifically dealing with vaccines. It's not sufficient evidence not to vaccinate as it's equally plausible that being exposed to the wild virus is just as bad - and could even be worse. It's not a zero risk game.

rightpissedoff · 03/03/2011 02:39

Well said Beachcomber.

What's weird Stata is that you never sound sensible, you always sound like you've got a little bit of spit at the corner of your mouth.

Now you're talking about the weight of evidence. Earlier you were talking about "no link" (a claim of negative proof Hmm) and then "no evidence" of a link. At one point you've said: "there's no link, but that doesn't mean there couldn't be a link" Hmm Hmm Lies, mistakes, ignorance -- who can tell? Very, very basic errors either way with a hefty dose of self contradiction thrown in for good measure.

Why is it funny that the majority of the epidemiological studies you use as "weight of evidence" are accepted as weak by the scientific community? Are you feeling OK? It's nice that you're amused rather than upset by having the rug pulled from under your "weight of evidence" but it makes you seem more than a little unbalanced. Can you stop quoting them now you know they're weak?

Your rant about the Phd yes, you don't understand. You stand or fall on the cogency of your argument, not your white coat, or a piece of paper. You expect your Phd to trigger genuflection. Whereas Beach and silver are actually able to address the issue with coherence and clarity, and without abuse, insults and offensiveness. Quite apart from you having to say: "Half of you are lying, don't know who but some of you must be [hmmm]" it's never too late to have a try at a rational approach Stata. See if your next post can leave out the insults and offensiveness. Small steps hey?

Yawn at the rest of your rant against the "anti-vaxers". Just ranty ranty rantville.

rightpissedoff · 03/03/2011 06:30

Oh by the way: I'm going to be as rude as I like because unlike yours, my argument doesn't stand or fall on it. And I will always react to the offensive and patronising treatment of my side of the argument.

My argument is very simple:

There is good evidence of a link.
The epidemiological studies which claim to disprove it are flawed and weak.

There are case studies: and the body of research linked to by Beachcomber, silver and thoughtaboutit. And finally, Occam's Razor. A sound collection which doesn't offer, or claim proof. It offers good evidence that a small group may be affected: a good reason for further research into analysing that group; and it almost demands a culture in which research is encouraged and parents are listened to, rather than dismissed or sneered at, or accused of lying.

Whereas you, what do you have when we take away your ranting about anti-vaxxers, your mendacity, your rudeness, your offensive accusations of delusion, your unsubstantiated and revolting claims of lying by parents?

We have self-contradiction, denial of evidence, confused claims about proof, and a lot of ropy old epidemiological studies that even the scientific community agrees couldn't prove or disprove a link if there was one. And a PhD which proves you're right Hmm apparently.

Despite this flailing about, you insist on being insulting and patronising. Or perhaps because of it - I suppose you have to be. You not got much else.

seeker · 03/03/2011 07:10

It is impossible to have a sensible debate when there are areas that are off limits. A feature of debates on this topic both on line and in RL is that if a parent says they believe their child is vaccine damaged, it is completely off limits to question this. Asking whether a person coupd be mistaken in their cincerely held belief that their child is vaccine damaged is always interpreted as accusing them of lying, and is chatacterized as dismissive and sneering.

It is impossible to talk about a serious subject when there are fundamental questions that cannot be asked.

rightpissedoff · 03/03/2011 07:22

Excuse me Seeker: one of your first contributions was: "That's not evidence -- that's anecdote".

Absolutely no interest at all: complete dismissal of all cases.

That's not a contribution to a sensible debate in any way.

Did you read the links from thoughtaboutit?

Catrinm · 03/03/2011 07:48

Well said Strata and seeker ! I think your arguments are very coherent and persuasive.

However, I think no amount of coherent arguments or scientific evidence will persuade some people that they are wrong about vaccines.

I just hope their children and others don't suffer as a result of their refusal to be rational.

silverfrog · 03/03/2011 07:49

Seeker, if you want to ask that question - go ahead. I don't mind people questioning, I do mind stata deciding that I am lying, when she has asked time and again (across a number of threads) if I have medical backing for what I say.

Before she knew the answer to that, I could see why she might think a mistake could have been made.

I have stated, quite clearly, that I do have medical acceptance fir what I say. As does Beach, and pagwarch, and saintly, and any other poster mentioning the health status of their child.

All stata could fall back on is that we are now lying for the sake of an internet debate - trolls, I suppose.

If only it were that simple.

So, you want to ask if it is possible I am mistaken? Would you ask dd1's doctor that, or is it th fact that I am a parent that makes me mistaken?

The only person here changing their argument is stata - first we were deluded, then mistaken. Now we are outright liars.

As rpo pointed out, first stata claimed absolutely no link, then mo evidence of one, and now says it is possible but not proven.

The nonvaxxers here have said all the way through that mmr (and others) are safe for the majority, bt not for all. And that we do not think it is right to have a blanket vaccination programme for all when some children are being very seriously damaged. And that more research, and sometimes just a bit of thought and screening, is what is needed.

And honesty. That would always be good.

Stopping the denial that this can, and does happen. Accepting that the very vaccines that have been held up as the safest thing possible, and then withdrawn through safety fears, have caused damage.

Not using a vaccine once it is known to have unacceptable risks - what do yu think about what Beach said re: mmr1 being shipped off to south america after it was withdrawn here - acceptable, given the known issues? Or just a way to save some money?

Questioning is acceptable, seeker. Calling us liars on mo basis at all other than the fact that stata does not want to believe vaccine damage happens is not.

Denying our children is just cruel, and callous.

silverfrog · 03/03/2011 08:26

oh, and btw rpo is right - there is a huge difference between questioning, and outright dismissal before you (not specific) even have all the facts.

now you've had the links, I would like to ask you again - what do you think about the gut/brain theory?

about the protein absorption/digestion issue which was rubbished for so many years (after all, wakefield suggested a link Shock - must be rubbish) and which now, years after that suggestion is being touted as "new" research because someone else has bothered to do it?

I too would be very interested to see if Stata bothers to actually answer Bech's question re: which paper was falsified, rather than just linking to the tripe in the BMJ which has been proven to be lies.

A further quetion would be why Stata keeps linking to the same old papers as "evidence" that the wakefield hypothesis is false and discredited, when they did not even examine his hypothesis in the first place (yes, yes, I know yuo're going to hark on about epidemiological studies, but it has been pointed out time and again that if you don't look in the right plcae - in fact, if you studiously ignore the right place - then you are not going to find anything even close to the right answer)

this is not a black and white argument (another thing which has been oft repeated by the non-vaxxers).

it is a subtle and complex biological puzzle. and the indications are there to suggest that the whole vaccine/immune response/autism scenario is linked.

StataLover · 03/03/2011 08:43

I've said what I need to say. It's going round in circles now and it's become quite exhausting, like arguing with Christians about the existence of God. I'm not going to repeat what I've said earlier. You've clearly not actually read what I wrote as it's all misquotes and distortion in the posts that followed - but that's to be expected as it's classic behaviour of the anti-vax denialist movement.

bruffin · 03/03/2011 09:27

Statlover- you have behaved with dignity against a bunch of foul mouthed playground bullies.

Unfortunately they are not interested in anyone's opinion other than their own, and I agree with you that the time they devote to the subject is ridiculous.
They ignore evidence and twist it - ie for years they denied that wakefield had a patent for a single vaccine, trying to make it was something else. Even though the patent is public record and easy to find and has the line
" there is a problem with mmr and I have invented a new mealses vaccine" or words to that effect.
They deny that wakefield said that mmr caused autism, yet if you read the transcript of the press conference it is very clear that is what he is saying.
If they are in denial about this very clear basic evidence you wonder what else they are in denial about.
Parents often need to blame something for their children's health problems, they don't necessarily lie about it but memories change to meet the facts. Richard Horton pointed that out in his book.
My DS's problems with febrile convulsions happened a few weeks after his MMR, some people may have connected it with the MMR but I now know it was a genetic problem.

Beachcomber · 03/03/2011 09:40

"Oooh, do you know what I just found out - that paper with the monkeys that Wakefield advised on was withdrawn!! And Thoughtful House fired Wakefield."

Yeah, I think you'll find I have already mentioned that paper.

You might be gleeful that science is being censored, but I find it a bit concerning myself.

I already posted on another thread about this here is what I said;

Two - do a primate study. (Actually it is shocking that this hasn't been done to test the increasingly heavy vaccine schedule as a whole. Many of us are very uneasy with the fact that the vaccine schedule is entirely untested). Well that nice Dr Wakefield did a primate study over several years with macaque monkeys being given the standard US vaccine schedule adjusted for size, weight, etc. Apparently the results are concerning - I say apparently because although the paper was accepted by peer review and published online by prestigious journal Neurotoxicology, it has now been censored and they are refusing to go to print with it (even though it was accepted for print initially). The editor of the journal says it was her boss in the publishing company Elesiver who made the decision to censor the paper.

This sort of thing is unheard of in science journals - the publisher ordering the editor to backtrack on the printing of a peer reviewed paper that has been accepted for publication.

Both the Lancet and Neurotoxicology which are the journals which have censored Wakefield's work are owned by publishing group Elesiver - the owner of which is a major shareholder in GSK.

Actually Stata the reason Mr Thrower's document is so long is because he has an autistic son who was part of the UK MMR litigation. He collated the the information as part of the evidence to be presented. As the litigation cited a, previously unrecognised side effect of the vaccine, it was up to the litigants to show plausibility.

Anyway the litigants never got their day in court as after years of preparing their case their Legal Aid was pulled at the last moment. The person he made the decision to pull their aid was a man by the name of Nigel Davis. His brother is a major shareholder and non-executive shareholder of GSK.

Of course it is no doubt just a coincidence that the GMC hearing involving Drs Wakefield, Murch and Walker-Smith (which had inexplicably been dragged out for months) ended just in time for the proposed publication of the primate study.

All of this can be checked out and verified - each of us must put our own interpretation on it. Mine is that this thing stinks...

rightpissedoff · 03/03/2011 09:47

Well said Beach and silver. All power to your elbows. Much dignity and patience in the face of refusal, denial and shameful ridicule.

rightpissedoff · 03/03/2011 09:56

Beach -- I had no idea about Elsevier and GSK. Shock that explains a lot.

Swipe left for the next trending thread